Curando sua criança interior: reconstruindo a autoestima e aprendendo a amar quem você é

Now I have all these things that I thought that were going to make me happy. And I'm not and I'm not. The last four years of my life have been the most difficult years that I've ever had. I think my marriage unexpectedly ended. Then I was diagnosed with cervical cancer, and that was a very, very difficult time.

How difficult was it for you to to look to the end of the tunnel?

I couldn't I there's there have been times that I thought this is not even a tunnel, but I'm going down there. There is no light. When we pass the trauma there's the possibility to learn from it. But it's a growth potential. It's not a given thing that you will grow. It's a choice. That's, I think, where the ultimate happiness and gratitude lies.

Welcome to the Living a Life and Balanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Saskia van Houten, a psychotherapist specializing in child and adolescent development, trauma, and neglectful behavior.

In this episode, we dive into child psychology and the different developmental stages that shape us. Saskia unpacks how unresolved childhood wounds can leave parts of us emotionally frozen, and how this shows up later in adulthood through anxiety, self-doubt, and disconnection. We explore the powerful work she does with the inner child, including imagery restricting and limited parenting, therapeutic techniques that help clients feel safe, seen, and whole. We'll also hear Sasha's insights on people pleasing as a survival response and how high functioning depression often masks shame, loneliness, and deep emotional pain. We discuss how healing occurs when clients feel truly mad in the therapeutic relationship, and how reconnecting with our inner world is the first step toward genuine transformation. I hope you will enjoy. Saskia.

Hi, Abdulla.

Welcome.

Thank you.

What motivated you to do what you do today?

I find the brain fascinating and I find it so difficult. No, I don't find it difficult. I find it intriguing that, the level of happiness or success in life is not really just determined by the background you grew up in or the talents that you've been giving, but that you can change your behavior.

But that's the most difficult thing to do to change your own behavior. And I just I'm so fascinated by that fact. So I wanted to know more.

And how did you start to explore the brain in the first.

Well it's actually my second university degree. So I did something else before I decided to be a psychotherapist or I wanted to be a psychologist. Way back when, when I was 18. But then my dad said, no, that's not a good idea. Why don't you. You're so good with languages. Why don't you do something else? So I first went into communication, and that was quite satisfying. I built my own PR company, I employed people and it was nice. And I raised a family, and. But there was something missing still. And then I thought, you know, one day I thought, you know, I'll sell the company and I'll go back to university to be a psychotherapist. So I was in my mid 30s by that time. And I think actually it's a good idea to become a psychotherapist a little bit later in life so that you have some and some experience under your belt, life experience.

but you could have done any any other studies become an architect or.

Exactly. Yeah. But I couldn't have worked with the brain. Then. Of course, doctor could have been a possibility, too. Yeah, I find the body fascinating as well. It intrigues me why the brain can't differentiate between actual events and imaginary events. As a human being, I find that a bit of a flaw in our design. But as a therapist, that's my biggest tool. Because if I know that our brain can't make that difference, I can help my clients imagine different things so as to get different results. So that is, yeah, kind of magic, I find.

Did you just end up one day in a and on a morning you decided? No I quit. PR and communication.

And my husband thought oh here she goes again. But no, no, you know, it's a gradual thing because I, I read books about personal development and about psychology and magazines and, you know, you get into this more and more.

I was just doing it as a hobby at first because I said I wanted to do it when I was 18. And then my dad said, you know, don't do it. So then I'm the kind of person who thinks, okay, I'll set my mind to a different thing, and I'll just do as I'm told. basically. But then, you know, there was this little voice that said, hey, I'm doing this as a hobby is not enough. And then we were literally on a summer holiday, and I don't know how I came across to it, but I saw that there was this entry. that was easier for people who already had a post-grad or a master's degree. And then I thought, this is my chance. And I said to my husband, you know, is this. I'm, I'm, I'm considering doing this. And he was really supportive, and he said, yes, go for it. You know, if this is your dream, why don't you do it?

To become a psychotherapist, you need also a lot of study time.

And. Yes, what exactly did you do?

And I did.

How many years have you?

Six years of university. Wow. And then after you have your degree. So in Holland works like this. You have your your psychology degree in. My child was in my case, sorry. It was child and adolescent psychopathology. And then you train in the therapies. So you get a little bit of that in your core curriculum. But you have to do all your specialized specializations after you have your degree. So then it's training of, well, in my case, schema therapy. imago therapy, that's a relationship, therapy that I give as well. eMDR, trauma treatment, ifs internal family systems. So, but it's good. I mean, I like learning. I'm a curious child. I have a curious mind. So, you know, I get to ask my patients questions, but I get to, you know, get new information, too. So that's really. Yeah.

So you learned, a variety of techniques and, and schools, you just mentioned, can you explain the differences between between each modality?

Well, all the techniques that I've been trained in are more or less the same.

They deal with the protective parts. So they all stem from the fact that, nobody is just one person. Nobody just has one face. I also explained this to my patients in a way like when you're at work, you show a different part of your personality from when you are, at home with your kids, or you show a different personality, different part of your personality when you're with your parents, as opposed to when you're arguing with your partner or when you're making love for that matter. So we all have these facets to our personality that we don't show all the time. Now in psychotherapy, we say there's no such thing as overreacting to a situation, but there is such a thing as responding to the wrong situation. And this is where all these therapies come in. Because sometimes, things that happen to you that you weren't able to process at the time or you process them in a distorted way. So the reaction to it is not accurate to what is actually happening in the here and now. And both IFS, internal family systems and schema therapy work with these protective parts that give a response to a situation which which might have been helpful at the time.

It might even have not been helpful at the time, but it's for sure not helpful at this time. And we try to lower these and fortify the more healthy, mature adult parts of of a person's personality. And this is what you do in the in the Imago relationship therapy as well. because we in in that part of therapy, we say that you always find the partner that is giving you the lessons from that you should have taken when you were younger. So they're pushing buttons and you can choose to see that as an opportunity to grow, to grow. Or you can say, why do you always you're just like my mother or whatever.

You also mentioned child and adolescent specialization or use.

Technology.

Initially. Yeah. what? What? So this is the client group you have been working with, or was more the training side and what motivated you to do it?

Well, it was to be honest, it was kind of a marketing choice that I did child and adolescent psychopathology. Because in Holland, you can treat adults when you specialize in children and adolescents, but not the other way around.

So I thought this will broaden my market if I do the child and adolescent. So I was I was schooled in child development but also, well really psychopathology like ADHD, things that you diagnose when, when people are younger usually.

And today you work.

Today I work with.

Current.

Yeah. Currently my youngest patient is 15 and the eldest is 73. So, it's a broad range.

And you use the different or the individual techniques or methods and adjust them to the individual needs? I assume.

Yes, because I find that each patient responds differently to things. So, some are more into the imaginary way of working, whereas I can also work with, well, CEOs, for instance, who will just want to do eMDR, for instance, which is a really technical protocol. It's really it's a trauma treatment, through the movement of the eyes. we treat that, not only the trauma, but also the, the beliefs that the patient has formed about themselves going through that trauma. And it's really technical, and you don't have to lie on the couch to talk about your mother, so to speak, because, you know, there's men, that are not too comfortable with going through these things.

And then if you can say, but this is a real technical thing and they're more open to it. So, you know, I have this little, how would you say store of different techniques? It's like making a recipe, actually, you know, and so the basic ingredients of what I do are more or less the same. And then for this patient, I make it a bit more spicy. And for the other one I make it a bit more creamy.

But it's not that you would like go based on a schoolbook. And this is what we do now, because this comes with experience. And I like what you just said. you know, becoming a therapist later in life after experiencing something, life happens to you as well and then become a therapist, so you know what you're talking about.

Exactly. And I don't think you have to have gone through everything that a patient has gone through to be a good therapist. Yeah, but understanding how difficult it is to change yourself or that life sometimes just happens and that you know you're doing your best, you're you're merrily on your way and then things happen and you, you know, life just throws you a curve ball without you seeing this coming.

You know, in hindsight, clients will say, oh, yeah, you know, I, I now that I like who was it? Steve Jobs said it. You know, you can you can connect the dots and then you can see the pattern. But when you're looking ahead it's difficult to see the pattern. So yes. And it's nice to, to have a big, well, bag of ingredients, to use the same analogy then, and to see, you know, this, this patient needs a bit more of this and the other needs a bit more of that.

You mentioned, like we are perceived by someone as, as the person we are or as the image we, we we show them. Yes. And and how many personalities can I have? Because I've when I, when I think about it like you perceive me how I maybe interact with you or the how.

I, how you behave in the.

Company behave in a certain environment. But I may be completely different to to someone else and completely different to another person.

So kind of multiple personalities we are and complex.

Yeah. And that if I first explain this concept, then patients always think, oh, you think I have this multiple personality disorder. And that's also the nice thing to know. Abdullah. You know we we psychotherapists work with the DSM, which is a big book where all the pathologies and all the mental health problems are, are listed in there. And everything that's in there is basically normal behavior. We only classify it as Distorted. If it's bothering you. So, you know, nowadays the words narcissism is used a lot. You know, and I'm sure that you see that as well. And I find that a bit difficult. Maybe we have a generation with more narcissistic tendencies. Could be. But epidemiologically, it's not possible that there's so many narcissists right now, but you could have certain narcissistic traits. And if you still function well, I'm not going to touch it. so but I will only work with it. And then maybe narcissism is a difficult, example because they are, I think, the last people to come to a practice to say, could you please help me with this? But the minute you think, you know, I want to have this job and I constantly can't get it, or I see a pattern of falling into the same traps in relationships or I.

it's the third time that I've been burnt out. then, you know, I will think that is. Chances are low that you will have three burnouts. There must be something underlying then that we need to look at.

I don't necessarily see it as a personality disorder or multiple personalities, but the way I interact with people definitely shapes exactly how. And they think about me. And totally and and also what, what, what story I tell about myself.

Exactly. But that's also a dense because I remind you of somebody that you've had previous experiences with and you like that person or not. So let's say you liked that person and I have the same physical resemblance, or I have the same background. You will you will present yourself more open to me. Whereas if you've had a negative experience for will. Me? You will be more on guard. So I get to see a different part of you. And maybe because you're so on guard, then that will remind me of a previous experience I had.

And then I think, oh, maybe this person doesn't like me or doesn't. I don't know, I could make up all kinds of stories. And this is where the imagination in the head begins, and where we correct this in therapy to say, but hey, this is a whole new thing. And why do you come up with this protective part? Like an alarm system, which is too tight? You know, the alarm system should go off when there's a burglar, but there's a lot of people with alarm systems that go off when there's a truck passing down the road, and we need to calm that down.

It has also certainly something with self-esteem when I think about it, because I feel like the the the stronger my self-esteem, I'm more natural interacting with everyone around me. Maybe also perceived as more equal by by different people. Versus if I try to please and be a with everyone like as they as I think they they need me to how they should see me. it's a, it's affecting or my self-esteem affects my relationships and that totally.

And that can go both ways. So you can I either go in the submissive role pleasing and sacrificing yourself because you don't think that you're enough for another person, but you could also choose the other option. You could also be too dominant and too controlling, because you don't trust yourself with being capable of dealing with the situation in a natural way. So I could go, several ways. Yeah.

When we go back to the child and adolescents faces and stages, can you can you tell me and explain to me a little bit? What are the developmental stages of growing up and what are what is special in in each phase? Because we we hear a lot that childhood trauma affects the rest of our life often. what's your experience?

I think often is the key word here because it doesn't have to affect you necessarily. But what we see is if there is a trauma in childhood which could be bigger or smaller, because the trauma is perceived by a person always, of course. So it could be as big as abuse or neglect or being hurt physically.

the less moderate thing would be, or the more moderate thing, sorry, would be being bullied and in school or being excluded. But it could also be as simple as, Your mother has a depression and doesn't come pick you up from school, and your four year old brain thinks I'm not worthy. You see, all the other kids are being picked up from school but me, so there must be something wrong with me. And what we see then is what we call arrested development. Because the bigger the trauma is at that time, the developmental stages won't continue as they should. So what we see then in later life is that the patients will repeatedly enter experiences as we do, but they will answer it from that arrested stage because they stopped at that stage. So they will Well, let's use the example of they will walk down the hallway in their, in their company where three colleagues are talking to each other and by the time they pass, they stop talking and they start laughing. So what do they think? You know, usually when there's a childhood trauma of neglect or or, abandonment, they would think they don't like me.

They're talking about me. whereas when you're more mature, more secure, like you just said, you think, oh, they're just having fun. Let me join them. and then from there, it will take a whole different, different course.

I would I would describe it as self-esteem if I'm, if I'm, if I in that moment now walking down the hall, it's how I feel about myself. And how secure am I, as you.

Were. Yeah. So that has to do with your attachment. but also with guilt. With shame. with how much have you been encouraged by your parents or by your caretakers to make mistakes and to repair them. Were you punished? How was. How predictable was your parent's reaction? so we see, for instance, that, children who get abused, at home suffer less if this is on a daily basis. Then if it's every now and then. so that's also I find that fascinating about the brain as well. So if it's, if it's predictable and this is the, the, the sad thing about it as well, we see that people recreate, circumstances from their childhood because that's what the brain, labels as safe because they knew, you know, so if their parents had a toxic relationship together, chances are higher that the child will enter into a toxic relationship themselves later because this is what they're used to.

Why do we do that?

Because it's familiar. Because we know our our tolerance is bigger for this. So if your father would always shout at you, you are better at dealing with the fact that your partner is shouting at you as well. because you you've just grown accustomed to this and the brain will get used to everything. It will get used to having a bottle of wine each day, but also at running a marathon each day. This is what I love. What we do at the balance. Because if you're in a fight or flight, if you're under a threat, you will not make different choices. So what we do here, what I love, is coming the nervous system down so that you can rethink about the options that you have, because the brain will get used to everything. And once you're no longer under threat, you know, let's say a tiger comes running in. Now we will stop talking. You know, we won't continue our talk because there's something else that we have to worry about.

And what we do in our treatment is we make sure we take everything away that can be perceived as a threat, so that I, as a psychotherapist, can come in and say, look at what is the dream life that you have. We can make the choice all over again. Is this really what you want? Do you really want to be in a relationship where you don't feel validated or seen? And then we can start to train them in displaying different kinds of behaviors so that they will get different results. Their self-esteem will climb. They will make other choices, other behavioral choices. And then we're in this upward spiral. And that is so fascinating to see.

Yeah, absolutely. I cannot agree more with you. It's about the safe environment to open up and to start trusting also that the trustful relationship with the therapists, which is exactly.

And that's what we also call limited parenting, because this has to be shown if a parent was not trustworthy and this could have either been the case. Remember, the brain is not capable of differentiating between actual events and imaginary events.

So the more sensitive your personality is. It could also be that the child says, you know, my parent was unpredictable and if I would were to ask the parent, they would say, that's not true. I was totally predictable. But that's not the case that we're going to ask that we're not blaming, we're not shaming, we're not making the parents wrong. We're just repairing what you should have gotten and you didn't get. And I model that as a therapist. So I'm going to be really trustworthy. I'm going to be I'm going to do what I say. I'm gonna if I do an intervention, for instance, in the past, in the memory, I'll ask permission to enter that memory because I won't do anything against their will. and because I'm repairing this. Because I'm showing this. Then slowly, but gradually, we're installing this piece in the patient so that they ultimately, they don't need us anymore. Of course, I mean, you know, they they can't just live with us forever.

That would be terrible.

That's not the goal.

That's not the goal at all. No.

You mentioned like our brain cannot differentiate between actual and non actual thoughts or. Why is that so?

As said I find that the, the one thing in our, design that I don't understand. For the rest I'm in total are of the capacity of our body. I, I don't know why this is, But it's like dreaming. It's like, you know, you must have had this when you wake up from a scary dream or from a really nice dream, you still carry that emotion. So we're able. Maybe this is what brought us so far. I mean, we're the the, the the animals with the biggest brain of all the all the animal species that we have. Maybe because we can imagine things that are not yet there, we're also able to build them. You know, we can envision things. You've built this clinic with a dream, you know, it wasn't there. And look at where we are now six years later.

so maybe it's it's a good thing, you know, it's not per se, but we just want to like the alarm system. We want to use it for what it's designed for and not to go off when a car passes the street, I think.

I think our brain, the intellectual level, can differentiate between is it actual or not? But our.

Totally.

Our body.

Cannot.

Differentiate.

Our emotional, our capacity can't.

Cannot differentiate.

Exactly. And the bigger the trauma then, you know, the the bigger the fight and flight, the more you will be a projected back into this fear of usually it's fear of abandonment, because I think 98% of the trauma that patients deal with has a component of nobody helped me, nobody was there, nobody saw it. I even worked with patients, who have been sexually abused in their childhood. And of course, the sexual abuse is terrible, but also the fact that their parents weren't able to protect them, that they didn't see it, that they sent them off to this uncle or neighbor to take care of them and didn't see what was happening to them.

That's a big part that needs to be repaired as well in therapy.

So a lot what happens during our childhood needs to be prepared later. And that's what partly therapy is about. You mentioned like we were talking. Minutes ago about the self-esteem and that this could be affected by our childhood as well. But when I look at my children, I have three, three wonderful children.

Of course.

Everybody is different.

Everybody does.

Yeah. You know, and they.

So you have to be three fathers.

Yes. Individually again, because they have different self-esteem. But I try to be the same to everyone, how they are. So of course, on the one hand side, I'm very thankful and grateful for my parents. I need to tell them thank you for please do.

Please tell them. Please tell me you can't tell them.

Showing me, having having me become the person I am today, partly and and with the self-esteem I have today. But I am only limited in how I can influence the self-esteem of my children.

If they are resilient enough, they will build this themselves. You know, in university I was taught if the upbringing is okay for 50%, then they'll grow up as a functioning, well functioning adults. So then I thought, okay, good, at least I only have to do the the 50%. But you know, when you said you want to be the same father to your children? I have three children as well. And I always said to them, in order for things to be fair, they don't have to be the same because they're they just needed different things. They have different personalities, they had different ages. So one could go to bed at, let's say, age, where the other was younger and he had to go to bed at seven, because, you know, so so you can tweak it a little bit per child.

Absolutely. Now, after for many years, I learned that as well that I cannot treat everyone the same. But this was my initial intention. Yeah.

To be fair and to be correct. And I'm the same person who I am. But every, every, every, every one of my children is individually is different.

And it's not your job to be their friend. It's not your job to prevent negative things from happening in their lives. It's your job to make sure that when they are adults, they have a backpack with tools so that they can overcome adversity when it comes. Yes. So if you do that, if you learn them. So if you teach them how to repair mistakes, by demonstrating this, by modeling this, I think you're doing them a favor.

When I think about it. You know, when my children come home and they are stressed about a topic, it's it's never helpful if I start to tell them what they should do. You know, what happens is. And what I learned, through through my being a father is. Be there for them when they need it and and to to support them with their questions so they feel safe.

They feel in a safe environment at home. And they can process. We help them to process their feelings, their thoughts and their.

And this is yeah, this is what I said to my it's I don't believe in punishment. Anyways. I do believe in boundaries and I do believe in rules, but I don't believe in punishing. But this is what I said to my kids as well. If something happens and you feel ashamed or you think it's your fault, please always tell us because otherwise you it's adding insult to injury, then you've had the negative experience and you have to deal with it yourselves as well. And they're still in this panic state, this fight or flight so they won't be processing. So that's the Arrested development then. It's not just the thing that's happening to them, but it's also the processing that they can't do. You know, everybody experiences post-traumatic stress. That's a good thing. if you don't process well, then it's post-traumatic stress. disorder. and that's what we have to repair as therapists then.

But it's normal that if something negative happens, they will doubt themselves for a while, or they will be angry, or they will be sad. And that has to lower for a couple of months. This is what I see as well, that parents nowadays, they want their child in my practice. So let's say they were not invited to a birthday party and then the mum will come and say, oh, he's so sad about this, you have to give him eMDR to get over this experience. And I said, well, call back in six months and then let's see how he's doing, because the body and the brain will, do this themselves. And if he can't. And usually that's because the sleep is distorted or whatever. There's all kinds of things. Then I can step in. But first. Yeah. I'm I'm not a fan of of diagnosis and overtreatment.

Not too quick.

Not too quick.

Not to process exactly itself.

Exactly.

There is this term of inner child. Inner child work.

Can you explain that to me? And how do you practice this and your practice?

Inner child work is the coolest thing because as said, because the brain doesn't differentiate between actual events and imaginary events. I can take you back to childhood experiences so I can take you back to a time when, well, let's say let's use this example again. You were four and your mother wasn't picking you up from school. And then we'll make this memory as vivid as possible with all the sensory things in it, like colors, temperature, the smell, the sound on the street. Who was there? Who was surrounding you? What were you wearing? How were you feeling? So that you can go totally back into this experience. And then I'll ask your permission for me to enter this experience. And I see you standing there at this gate. Maybe you're crying. You're overwhelmed. You're desperate because nobody's picking you up. And then I say, hey, I see that you're so desperate or that you're crying. And of course, I have more information about the patient by that time because, you know, we've been using several terms already.

I said, let me take you home. Come on. I'll take care of you so long as your mother is not here. And then we'll also talk to the vet. So I'll take you home in your imagination. So I'll let you describe the road that we're walking to your home, and then we go to your house, and then I'll say, I'll talk to your mom if that's okay. And then I say to the mother, you know, I know that you're really ill, but look at this little boy. He's only five years old, and he was afraid that you were not going to get him. Do you see how this makes him feel? Could you please look at your son when he's five years old? And the repairing the comfort that goes from this, this, this memory or this imagery re scripting. This is this is how we call it that we do is tremendous because the child feels seen, feels taken care of. it feels that I'm talking to the parent in a way that they could never have.

And I talk respectfully to the parents. But I do set boundaries, and I do protect their needs so that they, in later situations, can do this themselves. They can go to partners or coworkers or anybody and say, I need you to be there for me in this and this way.

So it's it's kind of, analyzing your childhood and try to re understand what is what was not going so well. And it's not your fault exactly. At this realization. It's not my fault exactly. When I think about highly traumatized people, you may not want to go back, and, and, and, and,

Revisit.

Bring this up.

Exactly. So that's not the first thing we do. So maybe we'll just. I'll just have them stand outside a room or inside a room through a glass, and they won't have to be present at the situation. So you make it as safe as possible. In schema therapy, we use, various chairs. So you want to you will say, okay, where do you want to sit? How close can this person be to you? And sometimes they sit outside of the room or on the other side of the hallway.

So of course you will never, ever do anything that is threatening to the patient because that will fire the fight or flight response that they have. Yes, it is about, repairing the image, the negative cognition that the patient has about themselves because they will always. And if this happened to you when you were a five year old, you will reenter this five year old's brain. So you will enter situations right now as if you were a five year old. That's the arrested development and the image you came up with at that time, was at a time where you also believed in Santa Claus. That made sense to you at that time that there was, you know, depending on which country you live. But there was a person once a year coming to bring you presents. And when you grow up, you realize that, you know, there were some elements to the story that were not correct. So you start to fact check them. This idea you have about yourself, you will not fact check because you are so afraid that you will.

That somebody else will say, well, Abdullah, I never thought of it this way, but now that you say it, you are right. You are not worthy or you're not. So you don't want to tell them anything about. Because our biggest fear is to be abandoned, to be kicked out of the group. Yeah. Because we said before, our brain is bigger than all of that of the other other animals. So we have to be born nine months into the pregnancy. Otherwise we can't go through the birth canal. So and our reptile brain, that's this little part that's connected to your spinal cord has all your survival instincts in it. And for us human beings, it also has our social preservation skill and a fear of being kicked out of the group. I don't know how this was with you when you were born, but in my case it was more or less like this. I've been told because I don't have an active memory about this, but I couldn't see, I couldn't walk, I couldn't hold anything myself, I couldn't talk, I couldn't take care of myself.

So I was totally dependent on my parents to take care of me. So the beautiful thing that happens, I mean, you've had it happen to you three times is this little creature coming into your life, and you'll do anything for them, right?

Oh, absolutely.

You did. One of the first muscle spasms that our body has is a smile. Is this gummy smile? It's not a smile. The emotion is not attached to it, but we as parents interpret it as. Oh, look at them. They're so cute. They're smiling because you've been up all night and you're tired and you actually want to go to bed because it's been a lot. And you will do everything you you can for them. So a child will not say, you know what, Mom and Dad? Actually, I think I'm not worthy or I think so, you'll keep that to yourself. And because you don't talk about it, we can never correct it. And because we do it in therapy, in an imaginary setting, in a safe setting with a therapist that the patient trusts, we can repair it.

And from there on we get different results in adult life.

So inner child work, should everyone do that to correct something?

Well, I think the degree to which we have problems, only if it's if it's bothering you, if you see I'm still getting to the I'm constantly getting to this same point, then it's it's worthy of looking at. And then we there's two distinctions. We there's either distortions between the ages of four and 12. So the, the the primary school age so to speak. And then you will see that there's this feeling of overwhelm. I'm helpless. I can't do this. I don't need I let's make myself smaller. Let's not present myself to the world. Let's sacrifice, let's please. Or there's a distortion in the 12 to 18 adolescent face. And if that's arrested, you're more aggressive, you're more outgoing. It's more externalizing the the first.

Rebellious.

Rebelling. Yes. getting into fights, getting into arguments, not feeling understood a loathing, other people having contempt, thinking better of yourself than you really actually are.

Because this is what an what an adolescent brain. You know, you give your child €50 to buy a jacket, and they come home with a tattoo, and then they think, oh my God, but how do I need to tell my dad where the €50 went? Because I don't have a jacket. And then they come up with these. Yeah, I was robbed or I was, because they can't see the future. Like that. So. So long as it's as it's not bothering you. Don't touch it. I mean, I'm not looking under every stone to see if there's worms, because there's worms. But if they're there, we're not going to touch it. But if you say, hey, I notice that I keep having these relationships that don't work or I fall for the same partner or I mean the public eye because I'm, I'm a singer or a CEO or a professional athlete. You know, we're talking about self esteem and and being acknowledged. I mean, you want the acknowledgement of your wife and your kids.

Maybe some of us in the company, to a lesser extent, your parents. But go figure. If you are, the CEO of a large company, like a really large company, or you're a movie star and everybody has an opinion about you. They don't know you. Because, as you said, you present a different facet from yourself than who you really are. but they have an opinion. I work in Dutch TV. I get this when I'm in TV, people send me messages saying about what a horrible person I am, and I'm like.

How do you feel then about it?

Oh, at the beginning I would answer this question and I would explain myself. And now I think, oh my God, you have such an easy life. If you can invest time in sending me a message about how horrible I am, you have no problems. So I. I had to learn to live with that. But in the beginning I found it really difficult.

Isn't it? Also something like if people if people would like, judge others.

it's kind of also something to do with their own self-esteem, just to feel better and increase their way of how totally.

If there's if there's a difference between you and me, there's two things you can do. You can either make me, go down and then there's a difference, or you can go up. but you going up is more difficult because it, it it takes, tenacious ness. It takes a talent. It takes hard work, it takes perseverance. It takes believing in yourself. And if those things are distorted, those are the things you can't do. So then, you know, in the end, you do have to come to therapy, because then you can grow and then you don't care about what other people. Yeah.

Yeah. That's the learning. I think that's a learning in life. You know, if you make other people bigger or happy. by not pleasing but just be there for them and b b b be authentic. It will come back. It will. It will give you also much more energy and feeling.

Totally. But I think if you let somebody else's light shine, you can benefit from that light because it will guide you. And then I will light my light. And then so there's two lights and then we'll ignite somebody else. So there's three lights. And I think that's the coolest thing if we can go, up.

I mean, we're talking a lot about the self-esteem when we grow up as, as children, it's affecting us during adulthood. But then if I think about it further and often when we see, like, people at an elderly stage, they many I can see and, and reflect about, they like to criticize. They like to, what has this to do with their own life or unsatisfied. Disappointment. Disappointments in life?

Yeah. Disappointment of what they have achieved. you know, you come to a certain age where, you know, when you're younger, everything is still in the future, so everything is still possible. But then, you know, when you get more or less middle aged, you have to look around and see, okay, so this is what I have created.

And for some people that's not been enough. They had wanted to do different things or they're not satisfied with the things they had. And then it's easier to criticize others, you know, again, to make that difference. Smaller, bigger. I mean, sorry, but, I also think people who criticize others criticize themselves as well, to a big extent. I also think people who hurt other people are in pain themselves. so working with Abusers. I mean, I work a lot with the victim, of course, but I also work with the people who have inflicted the pain. And they're not evil people. They didn't wake up one morning thinking, you know what? Today is a good day to kill somebody. Or let's take advantage of my younger brother. There's a whole, distorted set of ideas as well. I did my thesis in a in a prison for, for 16 to 18 year olds. and I just, I, I would come home and I would say to my husband, can't we just, you know, this one boy, can't he just live with us for six months so that he sees what, what a normal family is and how we.

And then my husband said, yeah, and then we take this boy for six months, and then we take another one for six months, or we let him go back to, you know, we can't do that, babe. And I get that. But, my heart goes out to them and I find it really rewarding to be able to to repair that. You know, this is what I find the fascinating thing about my job. It's there's two parts in my job. It's first to get past the protector part. and that, you know, requires a fierce, big, strong attitude. and then once I'm past this protector part, then it's really soft and delicate, and I'm like a surgeon mending the broken pieces of their heart. And I feel in awe because I get to see things that they have not shown a lot of people because they were so afraid of being rejected. And then if they will relax into this state like we do at the balance, if they can relax into this and they will allow me to repair it, to sew it, and then they will function.

But, I mean, you had a heart attack. You know what it is like if your heart is being repaired and how much stronger you feel after it. And this is what we do metaphorically, and that's the the best part of our job.

And I think you achieve this because because you, you, you go in without judgment.

Totally.

You don't blame you, you you are completely neutral. And this is also what creates and what what what the people you just explains would feel and and allow you.

Yeah. And if you are in the public eye so much they this is the thing you think everybody has an opinion about me. Everybody knows something about me or. But really, I don't blame. I don't find anything strange or awkward or, I just see the child who. Wasn't able to develop themselves as they should have.

If we go back to to that discussion about, about midlife and unfulfilled life and that in that sense, is it because we compare ourselves too much with, with the outside world, with, with others, what they have achieved, what I have not achieved, and what is it lacking? You know, should we look at more inwards because of the figure out what's really our own purpose? What would you tell these people not to get into this, blaming others or blaming themselves?

Well, again, you know what is what's the success that you measure yourself against could be different for you or for me.

So again, that's also a kaleidoscope that I use with my clients. They don't necessarily have to have the same values as I do. To me, abundance and happiness and success is about quality. It's not about quantity. so but it is about encouraging your patient. So what is really relevant to you and what would make you happy at the end of the day? And, this is what I like as well. If people come to us, they leave their normal world behind for a couple of weeks. It will be waiting for them when they get back. They can step into it any time, and it's being taken care of, and they find this sanctuary with us to distance themselves from their daily routine. And when you look at it from a distance, it looks differently. and you see it in more perspective. And maybe they will make different choices after that. Maybe they don't, but sometimes I see it happen when people go back to their to the life that they paused for a little while, that they took a little break from that they because we've repaired these things, because they have, gained more self-confidence, but also they've they've gained more routines.

I've seen patients leave the balance, doing yoga and meditation every day. Whereas before they thought this was unimaginable, that they were going to do this. They've changed their diet because our nutritionists explained to them why it was good to them, and they felt the difference as well. So, I think it's it's pausing and feeling safe processing and holding the things against the light and thinking, is this really as important to me, or is it am I trying to impress my parents still, or am I trying to repair something, was I? I was ridiculed at school because I was wearing glasses, and now I'm gonna, you know, get back to these boys who made fun of me to show them that I'm this big shot. But then, do you really like it?

It's not about what others think about you or what you have, but that's most people grow up that way in today's society, in today's world.

But I think they're. You hit the nail on the head. Really. I think this was I don't know about you, but I'm a little bit more middle aged than you.

But for me, this was the biggest lesson in my life to realize that this is what it all boils down to, that I like myself and that I, am happy with what I do and that I frankly I don't care that much what other people think of me. I mean, I do love that my kids think I'm a great mom. And for the rest, you know, the rule of thumb is one third of the people like you. One third of them don't, and one third of them have no opinion about you. And when we're insecure, we focus on this one third that don't like us. Yes, because we want to change their mind. We want to show them. Yeah, but you see, I am a good guy. So look at how successful I am. Or look at how the great movies I made or look at them. Whatever. Or you please. You know, I'll sacrifice myself so that you. Because let's say you're my my boss and you want me to finish a project, and I want to go to the beach with my family.

But you say, oh, you're the best psychotherapist here in the company. Could you please take on this client tonight?

Yeah.

What will I do? You know, because I want you to like me. So then I'll. I'll sacrifice the promise that I made to my kids, who will then think. You see, my mother is not trustworthy because we were going to go to the beach and now we're not. The most liberating thing for me was to discover that if at the end of the day, I do my gratitude practice and I can look myself in the eye, that the intention of my actions was good, because this is also a distinction. We judge ourselves for the intention behind our behaviors, but we judge other people for their behavior, so that's why we're more harsh and more critical. But if I if my intentions were good, I tried to do well and some things worked out well and others didn't. Fine. Tomorrow is another day and I'll try again. But my intentions were good.

And you need to accept that. That okay, you can fail. You can win in whatever is you. You. What? What winning is.

Yeah. What winning and failing and losing is. I don't even believe in those. In those terms. Yeah. And this is the, the humbling part for me as well to work with patients. We're all the same. Yeah. And it doesn't matter if you, you know which part of the world you were born or if you're in the public eye or not. We all struggle with this.

So you you are a therapist. I expect from you to be to be humble and and and self loving person. But when I, when I look at most most people, they grow up. They have to perform. They are pressured by by the parents growing up. They are pressured to go to universities to study something, whatever. and the pink is right.

That for a good reason. Because probably. Or maybe the parents didn't get to study.

So they think this is the coolest thing for our kid to, if they at least have a university degree. They don't have to be blue collar workers that every door will open for them, but they forget that maybe this is not what the kid wanted, but they have good intentions. I truly believe that.

I see that too. But then they grow up and they go in a job. They have to perform again. They have to prove themselves. They have to grow up the letter, or at some point they stop, because they, they, they reach a plateau. Any every person reaches a plateau in some or the other way. Exactly. Because of not everyone can be an an astrophysicist, you know. Exactly.

We can't be all CEO of the company. Correct.

So what do we what can someone do to increase self-love and self-esteem at some point of our life Is to to live more a happier life going forward. That's a big question.

This is such a cool question because I think this is really what it boils down to the self-love.

And if only we would have the recipe for that, that would make things so much easier. and what I think is that a large part is about slowing down and feeling safe. surrounding yourself with people that you feel, have your best interest at heart so that you can let your guard down. You know, this is why it's so important to have meals with the family or with friends. Because you will only eat when you feel safe. If you're under threat, you won't, you know, have the dining table and exchange your stories. And we can fool our brain into, you know it can't make a difference. So if you feel uptight just entering things like these in your daily ritual. Making time to sit down with your family, not have your sandwich in front of the computer. When you have a have a really busy day, but you step away from it and take the time to, take care of yourself. So I think self-love starts with good physical care, good nutrition, exercise, sleep and social bonding and also, taking care of that inner child.

The way that I talk to that little boy or girl who's afraid, or who felt abandoned or who felt left alone, just build little chunks of time in your day to dialogue with that person. And I'm pointing at my heart and my belly, because this is the exercise that I like to use a lot. You know, this, this child being in the belly and you ask them to move up to your heart where it's warm and where it's colorful. and that you see them, that you take the time to see them and that they can be there with everything. So it's also about forgiveness for yourself, and it's about, acceptance. It's about, dedicated behavior. You know, there's this myth that they say that you can do anything after 10,000 hours of practice. That's nonsense. Because if you practice 10,000 hours of running, for instance, but you always go at the same pace, you don't improve. So there has to be a plan, behind it. So self-love is a mixture of, comforting yourself, caressing yourself, creating the circumstances in which you feel safe and in which you can celebrate.

and also giving yourself the kick in the butt but sometimes to say and now you really need to do this. So. Boundaries. So it's not an easy recipe I'm afraid. Sorry not.

But it comes when it has to come to us.

And and you know what I don't know. I've heard part of your story and, you know, you're open about it, that you say, you know, after my heart attack, I decided things have to turn around. And I see that often. I've experienced it as well, that we go into this autopilot and we think we get away with certain behavior and the shit, sorry has to hit the fan before we change things. And I would so wish for people to not get to that point to. Yeah, not have to experience a negative thing before they change their lives.

It can amplify, I would say, but if I look at if I, if I would look at life, I would describe it in phases. You know the phase.

The first phase in our life. As a child growing up. We identify ourselves with our physical capabilities. You know. Oh, you're already walk now. You're stronger. You can do this. You can do play football. At some point we are grown up, but then we start to identify ourselves with our intellectual side, with what's what's outside. Like my university degree, my job title, my car, my house later on, and so on until we get.

Physical manifestations.

Physical manifestations. So that's that's phase number two. And phase number three is where we realize, happiness and and and and satisfaction and doesn't lie in what I have to collect and gain outside. So it can only be found inside.

totally. And everything that you gain. A Buddhist monk who was my supervisor for a while, told me this. He said, you know, look at these things as a hotel room or a car rental, a holiday car rental. You can enjoy them, but they will go away.

Yes. You know. So enjoy them while they're here. But they say nothing about you. So it's.

Not good. And the bad?

The good and the bad. Yeah.

This will still pass.

This. This too shall pass. Exactly. And the good thing says nothing about you, unfortunately. But the bad thing doesn't either. And if you can enjoy these material things that you have. but know that you're not dependent on them to feel genuine happiness and that you can feel that you're a good person, that your intentions are good, that you, try your best. that's, I think, where the ultimate, happiness and gratitude lies.

Yes. and especially when it comes that you get these feelings and emotions about. In this phase three of life. look at it as, as as something's telling you to look deeper and.

Well. And I also think that, you know, maybe people get disappointed because they don't get what they want. But what I hear often as well is now I have all these things that I thought that were going to make me happy.

And I'm not.

And I'm not, you know, now I have this career that I want. Now I do work in television. Now I have this husband, these kids, and it's not as fulfilling as I thought to have my Porsche or my you know, what it is. And because that's that's not what's going to make you happy at the end of the day.

Yes. Because we we missed the little things in life. I've seen people, they have everything and they gave everything of what they should do or they do. Give it. Give it away to others. To starve to people around them. Nannies and and they they become like, they have manoeuvred themselves into a position where, okay, I have nothing to do anymore. Yeah, totally. Okay. Not cleaning the house.

I'm not taking care.

Of my children. I'm not. I'm not needed anymore. I'm not important. My self-esteem,

It goes down to the drain. Yeah, totally.

And just to finish my my four stages, in life and phase in phase in phase four, it's about letting go, realizing that life is not about.

Resembles the seasons. If you say it like this, I.

Think so.

Of life. Yeah. So it's it's spring, summer, autumn and then winter. The letting go.

I'm not there yet.

Fortunately.

My children. But but you know when when I speak to people elderly and also in my research. You can you can see, you know, also the faces you can you can become angry and criticizing as we were just talking or you become.

And that's the people who grow old who who also lose their curiosity because they think they know it all. If you stop learning, if you stop wondering about things, if you stop being curious, then you age rapidly.

I find it may be in these faces, but everyone has a different pathway. And and what I believe is we need just to be more mindful about what's happening around us and within us so we can conscious.

We consciously work.

And learn and be curious, as you just mentioned, and, become become 1% better at a time.

Exactly. And if you do it consciously and with your full attention, you can't go wrong. And then sometimes things won't work out the way you want them, but then you repair them and then, you know, it's like this recipe again, you add a little bit of this or you, you know, there's a little less of that in it. And yeah, we have a great job, you and I, to be able to contribute to, you know, people saying, okay, maybe if we do it a little bit more like that, then you'll be happier because that's ultimately what I think people want to be. They want to be happy.

You mentioned like something when when life doesn't happen, what you expect. This reminded me on a story you told me a while ago about about you being a tween and your parents did not expect you coming.

Exactly. That was a plot twist that was totally not expected that that was going to happen. Yeah.

How was it growing up as a twin?

It's a the biggest blessing and it's the biggest curse.

it I have my best friend who understands me with like, we only have to to answer the phone. And just by knowing how, what word we use or how we pronounce it, we know exactly how the other person is feeling. but it's also, as a person growing up, identity wise, it's really difficult. Until the age of 14, 15 people couldn't tell us apart. And it's really strange for your. I had a supervisor once in Holland. You change supervisors every two years, every two years. So you have to tell your whole life story. And I said to him, I'm a twin. And I said, he said, oh, they have a distorted identity development. Well, the fact that he said they made me get goosebumps because I don't want to.

Be a person.

Yeah. I don't want to be a group. I want to be individualized. But when I thought about it further, it's true. The first remember that, think about this, that the first 15 years, wherever you go, you have to introduce yourself.

You have to say, no, I'm Saskia. That's really so. The fact that I do work in TV sometimes, I think maybe it's because of this.

To be seen.

To be seen? Yeah. As as. As who I am. Yeah. So, Yeah, it has two sides to it. It has the sun and a shadow side.

Yes. That you have done your inner child work.

I'm constantly doing my inner child work because there's. This is also funny. It's there's constantly new layers coming up. I've recently done work with a new supervisor that I've had a couple of months ago, which was such a big thing again, that I thought, wow, I didn't even realise this was here. I thought I had done it all, and then because there's so many work done, there's a new scoop that you can take. So that is, that was really liberating for me.

So you're a therapist, but you constantly update yourself? Totally. You don't know everything?

No.

Fortunately, I don't know everything. And we're only human two, of course. And we can't help ourselves. You know the interventions that I did, for instance. You know what I said? That I go to this childhood memory. I can't do that for myself. I can't bring myself in that memory. So I need colleagues to. And I'm a bad patient, I must admit, because I either think the therapist is not so good as what I had hoped, so then I'm not a good patient, or I think they're amazing and I want to learn everything from them, and then they're more of a mentor. So I have to, manage to be a good patient when I need it.

There is there is another thing. Human people growing up at any age, they come up with like the shame side. and many feel also depressed. High functioning. Also very often have you come across, clients and what? What?

Oh, I think Abdullah. That's the the new epidemic, the high functioning depression.

Because we won't allow ourselves to recognize that we are depressed because the, it's the same as high functioning alcoholism. You know, we have an image of an alcoholic as somebody who can't function, who will be a vagabond, who doesn't have a house, who lives under the bridge with just one bag of, you know, whatever it is, most people with who drink more alcohol than they should function really well. Their surroundings won't even know that this is happening. And this is what I see in my practice a lot now with depression as well, because we have this image of when you're depressed, you lie in bed, you cry the whole day and you don't do anything but the high functioning depression is actually the biggest, thief of happiness. Because you function. You just don't feel it. You're not happy enough. This is one of the realizations that you have when you say, look, now, I've manifested everything I wanted and it doesn't make me happy anymore. And you don't have the clinical signs of the depression as we identify them.

but it robs you of this feeling, content, which is a lovely word that you just used. Or happiness or gratefulness or joy. Just pure joy. Playfulness that we want in life. You know, this is also what a lot of people have. They don't have enough time to do purposeless things. I mean, think about it. How many hours per day do you do something where nobody else benefits? It's just for you. You know, and and I think that's good, even if we do it 2% of the day. That's half an hour to just do silly things, to just soak up the sun, to just read a book or a magazine, or to just, you know, whatever it is that you like, but nobody else benefits. Just you. And I think that's maybe a sickening secret ingredient to self-love as well, to say, okay, 2% of the energy I have to spend during a day, it's for me, 2% of my energy income. I'm the only person benefiting from this because I think if you do that, then the rest will benefit too.

So I, I do see that two things I see in my practice. I see the high functioning depression, which is totally unrecognized. I think in the coming years we will hear a lot more about that. And the second thing, I see a lot of underdiagnosed autism in high functioning women who will then come, especially in women, because it's different. Autism is different in women from men. and they will come to my practice saying, I've had my third burnout, and that's basically impossible. So and autism is about filtering. It's about being more sensitive to stimuli than people without, without autism. And so then we have to reshape their world so that because their filter doesn't work, it doesn't sieve through as in a person without autism, but because a woman with autism is sociable. And we always think, you know, the artist is like Rain Man. You know, he can he can solve difficult puzzles and he can't make eye contact. And he set in his routine. But women are different.

Yeah, there is a wide spectrum as well.

Total. Total weight spectrum. Yes. Of that because Rain Men is the classical autism. yeah. So so those are the two things that I, see in my practice a lot.

And you also wrote a book.

I wrote a book. I did, yes. Is this is Sona I really I've, I've been so blessed. I've, I've gotten everything I want in life. I didn't get it the minute I wanted it, per se. And not everything stayed either. But I got everything. And. And being an author was one of the things that I. That sounded cool to me. And I am a published author. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. It's a book about, self-image and about, you know, what? You imagine. If you think I'm cool, then that's the truth of you think I can't do anything, then that's also the truth. So it is about this, this forming your self-image, as I said, at the age where you still believe in Santa Claus and the book is about to, it gives examples and, really easy exercises to help yourself change that.

I saw the quote like if you believe. If you believe, you are great. Life will bring you greatness.

Totally, totally. But that's that's because you're you're the thing you're set out to see. Life is going to present, proof of that. So by changing the way you think, the whole realm will change. It's amazing what our brain can do. It's so powerful.

Can you explain the term mirror exercise?

Mirror exercise? Oh, this is such a cool. This is, So there's self-image. Self-image is about how you see yourself as a person. But there's also this image about how you see yourself physically. Right. So let's say you are not so, happy with how you look. We did this professor in university where I studied, did this cool exercise, and I use it in my practice. So let's say you think your upper legs are not as you would want them. Then if you look at the mirror, guess where your eyes will go first. Everything that you give attention goes so there's proof.

If you think life is great, life will give you great experiences like you just said. So we can change that. We can turn this around. So if you don't like your upper legs, and the fact that you look at your arm says something about your self-esteem and your confidence, so you're proving, what you said before in this, in this podcast. So that's cool. You're congruent. We like that as therapists. It's not just it's not just words that you use. So what I will do is I will make you look at other parts of your body that you do like. So let's say you don't like your upper legs, but you do like your eyes. And then we do this mirror exercise. You stand in front of a mirror, mirror and look at your eyes for five minutes, which is a very, very long time. And you have to say to yourself what you like about your eyes. I like my eyes because I like the shape. I like my eyes because I like the color.

I like my eyelashes. You know, you can think of it. What I do then, secretly, is I write down what the patient says and I will send them a handwritten letter. So I see, dear Abdulla, your eyes are so beautiful because they have such a lovely shape. Your eyes are so beautiful because. So. And then I put a little confetti in that letter. So the patient will get this letter a couple of days after the session. Is not expecting a handwritten letter. I mean, how often do you get handwritten letters? So they open it, the confetti comes out, and then they start reading. Dear Abdulla, your eyes are so beautiful because da da da da da. Signed love. Abdullah. And this is like the best intervention you could do. This really moves patient to tears because we usually we're very, very good at criticizing ourselves. You know, if something goes wrong, we have a whole vocabulary of saying what we can do. But saying things to yourself that are good.

You never do this because we were raised in a culture where you know you. You shouldn't think that you're better than anybody else, or you shouldn't love yourself, because then you might be narcissistic, or you might be egotistic or you selfish or whatever. So we don't do this, and this is self-love to the core that you can say to yourself, you are so awesome. And yes, there's things that you want to work on, but I see this in you. You know, this is where you just have a relationship. You know, you you dress up nicely for your partner and you wear the nice perfume. Perfume. And you have the nice stories. People don't fall in love because they like the other person so much. They like themselves how they present themselves to their new partner. So the biggest gift that you can give yourself, and this is a bit cheesy psycho speak, but is to fall in love with yourself. Yes, to love yourself and to treat yourself and to say to yourself every day, I've done a good job.

I'm a good person. I like my eyes because I have the greatest eyelashes ever.

Oh that's beautiful. A love letter to your patients. I never heard that.

Well, it's not signed by me. So it's a love letter from them too. From then?

Yeah, from them to themselves. But. But you you prepare it for that.

I prepare it for them. I just write, yeah. I just write down what they say. I just echo their own words so that they can leave it at their. At the bedside table and read it every now and then.

That's so beautiful. I love it. I absolutely can relate to to the to the example that your environment shapes also your self-esteem. Yeah. I remember reflecting on my childhood and growing up during adolescence when I grew up until I was seven, eight years old in Lebanon and then moved to Switzerland in in my younger age, I had really strong self-esteem. I was proud about who I am, who I was. I was very open.

Which is also in the Lebanese culture.

It's more of the culture part of the people. I never felt criticized. The cultural environment was always motivating. Oh, you look good. How are you doing today? It's hugging and and very friendly. Yeah. Growing up in Switzerland, I felt like a bit more isolated. More. Oh, you couldn't say that. You cannot say you are good or better or. And I felt like during my adolescent time, I, I get calmer, I got calmer, I learned more timid. Yeah. More more more inwards. I tried to be neutral, not to express myself too much, because of that and, until later in life, where I increased again my self-esteem.

Because there is nothing enlightened about shrinking so that other people won't feel insecure around you. And I even experienced this now at an adult age, from moving from the north of Europe as well, to, to the south, here, to Spain, to Majorca. That's, you know, you come into a shop and they say, oh, hi, how are you, gorgeous? Or.

Oh, you look so pretty. Today in Holland, a one woman who doesn't know Another woman would never say that to her. and you would also. And friends would sometimes say it, but here you will just buy your bread and they say, oh, I love your dress. And you're like, oh, thank you, thank you. So it's yeah, I love this culture too.

It has been just like differences even within the country between, let's say, the area of Zurich. Yeah, a German part. Yeah. And so.

They it tells.

Of part Switzerland in the Italian part. We remember I remember when when our first child was, was born in Zurich. You cannot there are no public playgrounds or very few. And you cannot be loud. You always have to be calm. And and it's like social pressure not to express yourself too much, I felt. But when we.

When we stay the same.

Also if you fly with with with the Swiss airlines compared to other airlines if you fly with the Lebanese or another culture country, they are much more open and louder and culturally.

But in the south of Switzerland, just as a as a comparison.

To the Mediterranean.

The more Mediterranean Italian speaking, when we go in with our child. Oh, hello little. How are you doing? And they were caring about the little ones a lot. It doesn't matter. We felt more accepted as such.

And that, I think again boils down to the safety, the calming, the nervous system down. If you feel accepted and not criticized, and if everything is good, what you do, then from that safety you can look at yourself and say, hey, are there things that I would like to change? Or how do I want to show up better tomorrow or different? And from that stage you can grow and you can develop yourself. But if you're under stress and being criticized is being under stress because you don't want to be kicked out of the group. Then you will never change. And this is what adds to this high functioning depression, because you're constantly fighting your normal way of being.

Actually, yeah. Yeah. You're thinking about you're doing something wrong.

Exactly.

At some, at some point, I remember exactly flying back from after two weeks of rain from the Maldives, back to Zurich and of course, and everyone, everyone in the plane was it was a Swiss airline. So everyone in that plane was so negative because they had a bad experience. It was raining, you know.

You go, okay, you.

Expect.

Sunshine.

And our child had colleagues and it was crying a lot. You know how stressful this was for us as, as as.

A young person.

Young.

Parents.

And and and you could feel it in the eyes or maybe we may make this interpretation that that everyone was, was, was feeling bad about us, or we are disturbing them. But but even the hostess came. And don't let your child walk here and don't do this. You know. Very. This was so stressful. My wife was almost crying on that plane and said, I will never fly again with children.

I hope she did. I hope she did. We did good because a lot was because you said in in a side note just now, you know, maybe it was just in our heads. We were thinking that everybody thought, oh, these people are bad parents or they're hindering us. But it was in your head. It was all assumptions.

Maybe. Maybe a combination.

maybe.

I will never know.

Yeah, you will never know. And and it doesn't even matter. One thirds of the people don't like you anyway. You don't have to convince them. You know.

When we when we talk about happiness and self-love and self-esteem, have you achieved that in your life and constant over all periods of your life?

That's two questions. Let me first answer the first one. Have I achieved that? I would say at the moment, yes. I on a scale of 1 to 10, if I would measure my happiness, I would say I'd give it an eight and a half to a nine.

Yes. I'm pretty. I'm pretty happy right now. The second part of your question, has that been constant and has that been in every part of your life? Of course not. No and no. There's two things to that. Things have happened to me as well. Things. And this is why I think you should make such a point out of, actively calling happiness in. Because the nasty things they will present themselves, they will show up at your doorstep. And the more active you are in being happy and nurturing yourself in a in a good way, in an emotional way. I mean, the better equipped you are to deal with these setbacks that you that you have. And the second thing is, so this is when really negative things happened and they happen to all of us. So they happen to me too. But there's also a thing of being happy in your life and being happy with your life. And I always use the example of being a young mother. There was nothing more that I wanted in life than to become a mother.

And fortunately, that was given to me. more than once did I enjoy every single second of motherhood? I don't think so. No. There were times when it was too much. When we were young parents as well. We were struggling. Well, maybe in an airplane, maybe just getting too little sleep, my food always being cold for the first six years into motherhood. so I didn't really enjoy it. I was happy, being a mother because that was the biggest thing, but I didn't really enjoy it every second. And that's where the self-love and the, slowing down sometimes and taking good care of yourself comes in. And also saying, you know, sometimes it is difficult. It is not at all. But, you know, you fall in love with your partner and you think they're the best. But, you know, there comes a point when you enter your first argument or you think, well, they're not as as flawless as I thought they were. and then it's a matter of dealing with that.

And the better you take care of yourself and the more you can see, oh, this is a distant memory. This is me standing at this gate thinking my mother was not picking me up. I'm projecting this onto my partner now, or I'm. I'm not going with my kids to the beach because my boss asks me to step in for this, you know, important meeting. if you know where you come from, then you can say, okay, I'm going to say yes to this, and I'm going to compensate for it to myself, or I'm going to say no. My boundaries here.

You mentioned, you know, you've been a mother and getting getting children. what comes to my mind is when we when we grow up or when we have children. I certainly reflected more about my own childhood. It's kind of also an inner work when you think about. So if your childhood was some elements were automatic, some elements I tried to to study, to learn.

And you revisit your memories again because.

How was it for you? How, how how do you want to be? What kind of parents do you want to be? And and, to be the best version as a as a father or as a parent.

Exactly. And and you also make mistakes and you see yourself making the same mistakes as your parents made as well, because there's a nature nurture element in it as well. So I've seen myself or hurt myself do things as a mom that I had sworn I would never do as a child because, you know, my mother had two children. and then she would give us the wrong name, and I thought I'd never do that. And I'll never I'll know when my kid is. And it happened to me as well, because I was busy and I was doing other things, and I was working and I was picking up the phone, and then I would, you know, use the wrong name for my one boy and the other one. And so things happen.

We are not perfect, you know, we can we cannot always be that perfect parent for or for our children.

And that's not our job. You know, that's what we talked about before.

Be authentic. Show them. Also, vulnerability is sometimes much more important than than being and showing just.

And.

Being a perfect parent.

Exactly. show them how to deal with adversity and to recover from pain and to repair mistakes. I think that's the best thing we can do.

Some get also into postpartum depression. have you come across some some patients clients you've been working with and how how should we understand postpartum depression.

Well it's it's a sudden drop in. So what we see especially in women with ADHD and autism, that they're more what's the word I'm looking for sensitive for their estrogen, drops. So there's, three times in life, three bigger times in life where this plays a role in adolescence, during pregnancies and right after pregnancy. Because then there's this sudden drop and in perimenopause. Exactly. But also every third week of the cycle because then the estrogen drops as well. And fortunately there's a lot, a lot more knowledge coming available about hormones.

And it's more openly discussed because women used to be treated as many men and were not. Our whole system is different, and fortunately we're getting more knowledge about that. But if it's unrecognized that you're sensitive to these hormonal fluctuations, then this can happen after, after childbirth. Fortunately, it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. Yeah.

So is the origin purely biological? I think so.

Yeah. A post a postpartum depression is usually a biochemical. Yes.

You mentioned also that you had some setbacks in your recent years in life. Yes. Are you open to tell us or tell me more about it?

Yeah, sure.

And how you dealt with it?

Yeah. I the, the last four years of my life have been the most difficult years that I've ever had, I think. I've had some times before where my middle child was brain damaged when he was four. So that was a tough time as well. but my marriage unexpectedly ended in 2021, in January of 2021, and then I was diagnosed with cervical cancer the year after that.

So January 22nd. And that was a very, very difficult time. And, you know, we were talking about the fight and flight, mode being diagnosed with a severe illness. And from the get go, I knew that it wasn't going to kill me. so it wasn't a fight for life or death, but still, we're not talking about a flu. That took up such a big chunk of my, energy that there was no room to deal with the emotional, damage, so to speak, of the divorce. So when I finished my treatment in 2023, I thought, I can't believe what happened. I was going down this highway of happiness and look where I am right now. I felt it felt derailed. It felt as if I was, you know, driving high speed in this third face, of life, you know, really paying a lot of attention, to the material stuff in life. nice house, nice clothes, nice trips. and all of a sudden, I thought all of this is gone, And I chose to move to Majorca.

to work on myself. So I don't work full time anymore. I work 4 to 6 hours, six days per week. so that I also have 4 to 6 hours per day to, Work on myself. So. And I do that by hiking a lot. I live in the mountains here. The best part in Mallorca. And it's so beautiful. I can just step out the door and there's ten different hikes I can do. I run in the mountains as well because I live in the mountains. So I run, I do yoga, I do meditation. The food here we have the Mediterranean diet. so we really have farm to table. I spent a lot of time, journaling, gratitude practice, being with people I love. spending time with, you know, my kids, my family, but also new friends. One of my mantras I made when I moved here was, I haven't met all the people that I'm going to love yet. so. And I found new ones and more are welcome in my life because it's so, you know, everybody.

Maybe. I think you're an example of this as well. Everybody I meet here who's not originally from the island has such a cool story because nobody ended up here by accident. And if you ask somebody, why am I your cat? They would all say we were. It's the energy on the island. And we were in love immediately. and they all came here because they wanted to repair something like me, or they were in search of something. I have friends who are from Chicago, for instance, and they have a eight year old daughter. She just turned eight and they said, we didn't want to have her grow up in that, that environment. We want her to be able to play out on the street here, for instance. And, it's done me so tremendously well. And I wish I could have done without these four years, without these experiences. And we were talking about it before that. Sometimes life has to stop you because otherwise you don't listen, but it wouldn't have missed it for the world.

It's certainly hard to go through. And when you are in that deep moment, was it how difficult was it for you to to look to the end of the tunnel, to see to the end of it?

I couldn't, I couldn't I there's there have been times that I thought, this is not even a tunnel. I'm, I'm going down there. There is no light. And this is taken pretty long. And I'm, you know, when you're under stress, your fight or flight, I'm definitely a fight. I take a step forward when things, when the going gets tough, as they say, and I have, I'm pretty optimistic, and I have a high level of energy. But there were times when I thought, I can't do this anymore. But I did keep going. thanks to lovely friends, thanks to good circumstances, thanks to prioritizing myself. And I'm at the other side of the tunnel, and it's just not the same landscape, I. I believe that we all come into this world to, to, have one lesson, and I think this was mine because in the end, I think I was totally afraid of being alone.

and now I know I can, and I didn't die. I actually kind of like it. I don't want to be alone the whole time, but there's privileges to having the bed to yourself, I can say. Or always having the food on the table that I like. but I think, I think I've, I've grown tremendously. And, you know, it's it's it's not that this is going to sound cheesy. What I'm going to say right now, but I sincerely mean it. I feel so privileged to be part of the balanced team because I used to work alone and live alone. That's a lot of alone. And now I'm part of a team. And although we don't see each other the whole time, when we see each other, everybody has the same view of life as I do. Everybody takes good care of themselves. they're all, really dedicated to their task. And we do fun stuff together as well. And that is. That is nice to find a group of like minded people at the age of 53.

And yeah, I'm really grateful for that. And then to be able to basically offer to our patients how we live ourselves, you know, isn't that the coolest thing?

Absolutely. And I also believe we can only be support to others, like.

If we walk our talk.

If we walk our talk, and we are in balance ourselves. Yes. And and that's what what we what we were talking about also being with children, you know, you, you, you you support your children to grow up by by being a role model. Yes. And and not by telling them what to do.

No, because they won't do as you say they will. They will do as you do.

As long as something on a therapeutic level. If it's just a business, if you just do your work, it becomes technically, you know, AI and future robot can give you a massage, but at the end, it's not about that. It's about exactly that. The therapist, the body therapist, or whoever is working with you, the talking psychotherapist.

They need to feel you. They need to to react to your feeling or to feel your energy. And it's also different if if it's over a screen or over if you if you would sit in person. We are human beings and we need to connect.

I will though, I must say we have some good psychotherapeutic inventions since Covid that are better on screen than face to face, I must say which one. So eMDR for instance, much better in a screen because you can do a lot more. And sometimes if a person is really traumatized, it's even safer to not be in the same room, as the therapist, and they will have the corrective experience in their home also, and not in a therapeutic room. so it's better installed in their brain. So I think this is really a good one. but I agree with you that we have to connect with them, and I'm a scientist, so I'm not offering my own experience to you. The things that I have dealt with are mine, and I'm based on science, and I was university trained.

So you do get evidence based treatment, but with a hinge or a a little bit of, personal experience or intuition, added to it. And the extra ingredient is love.

Thank you very much for sharing the, your personal story and what happened to you. And I hope you are now on, on, on, on your path. We're always a bit wiser afterwards, you know, connecting the dots. And why has something happened as it happened?

And this is what they call post-traumatic growth potential. you know, when we pass the trauma, there's the possibility to learn from it. But it's a growth potential. It's not a given thing that you will grow. It's a choice.

If you would speak to everyone in the world or who's listening right now, what would you tell them. What single suggestion would you give them for their lives?

Or to realize how cool they are and to prioritize happiness? Because I think in the end, today is all we have. And just give yourself 30 minutes a day to, to be happy and loving yourself is not selfish.

Thank you. That was beautiful.

My pleasure.

I enjoyed the conversation a lot. Me too. Thank you very much, Saskia.

Thank you. See you next time.