Trauma Lives in the Body

Boys playing with Barbie, not okay. Being gay was a mental disorder. I was in six years of conversion therapy. I had a pretty traumatic childhood. I really spent the next 28 years being somebody else in order to be loved and accepted. A close family member had their first psychotic break, and it devastated me. And it wasn't until I was in my residency at Harvard I started working with the chronically mentally ill population. It was like the second time I felt it so powerfully. The pain that these people were going through. What's your understanding where trauma sits in our body?

It depends on who you're listening to on TikTok or Instagram. Does the body keep the score? Does the body not keep the score? Thoughts, feelings, physical sensations. Like it's stored all here. Nobody gets through this life without pain. It's part of the human experience. Most healing happens outside the therapy. In your life, I was here to go through it so that I can help people heal from it.

Welcome to the Living a Life and Balance podcast. My name is Abdullah Bulad. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balance Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Dr. Frank Anderson, a Harvard-trained psychiatrist and psychotherapist. He's also the founder of trauma-informed media and author of multiple books. I hope you will enjoy. Frank, what motivated you to do what you do today? Boy, that's a long, big, complicated story.

But I will dive right in. It started when I was six years old, and I'm kind of not joking. It really did start when I was six years old. I didn't know it at the time, but my parents sent me to psych psychological testing in downtown Chicago because I got caught playing with a Barbie playhouse in my cousin's basement. And back then in the day, playing with boys, playing with Barbie, not okay. So I was kind of sent to therapy, unbeknownst to me, um, and was in six years of conversion therapy. Wow. Basically. So it started this trajectory.

I say it in jest, right? But it did start this trajectory like you're bad, you're wrong, you have to be somebody different in order to get loved. Something is wrong about you. Something is wrong with you. And so I spent I really spent the next 20, 28 years shutting myself down, being somebody else in order to be loved and accepted. And that drove me to succeed and achieve, succeed and achieve to be loved. So I studied, studied, studied, studied. You know, I did all the stuff to get A's, to get A's, to get A's. And then it wasn't until I think I was a freshman in college, a close family member had their first psychotic break for bipolar disorder, and it devastated me.

Devastated me. And I had no idea why. It's like, why is this affecting me so much? And at that point, I was in a pre-pharmacy program. I was going to be a pharmacist, but I was just so devastated by the observing and witnessing their their kind of mental health journey. It's like I've got to change. So I became, went into pre-med and shifted from pharmacy to psychiatry. It was like I have to save these people. I have to save these people. It was really striking. And again, at the time, not understanding what the heck was going on for me inside. And then it wasn't until I was in my residency at Harvard that I again started working with the chronically mentally ill population and really felt them.

It was like the second time I felt it so powerfully, the pain that these people were going through. You know, Bessel and I went to the same residency program.

Yeah.

You know, and I was like, what is going on? Like, what's happening here? Why am I so affected by these people in pain? I'm not psychotic. I'm not homeless. Like, what's the problem? Right. So at Harvard at the time, you were really encouraged to go into therapy for your own personal journey while you were in your second year, because that's when you did outpatient work, right? My first year, I was like, I can't take this one minute longer. Dove into therapy because I was just so stirred up and so overwhelmed. And that's when I started learning about my own trauma history.

Yes. It wasn't until then, and then you know, many, many years of unpacking it all. I was like, oh, this is why I was so affected. This is why I'm so affected. And it took a long time to kind of unpack who I really was, um, to unpack why this other people's pain affected me so much. Yes. So it's been a long, it's been a really long journey, but one that started very early. But you were feeling the sensations and emotions. I wouldn't even say feeling emotion, because that's an important differentiation. I was feeling strong reactions.

They weren't emotions. And I, you know, I write about this in my second book, Transcending Trauma. Trauma reactions are not emotions. And people often distinguish the big reactivity, the anxiety, the shutting down, as if that's a feeling. That's not a feeling, that's a reaction. So I had strong reactions. Okay. And the feelings being devastated, being alone, being traumatized, that came much later to be able to differentiate what is an emotion and what is a reaction. So I had these strong reactions with no awareness because I really learned very early shut down, disconnect, do not feel.

Why? Because I was uh an expressive, empathic, vibrant little boy, and that was not acceptable. Yeah, that was not tolerated. That was not tolerated in the world that we lived in. I grew up in the Midwest in a very conservative family, and boys don't dance or play with dolls or do arts and crafts. It was really like this is I used to look at my uncles. So like that's the way a man acts. Be like him. Okay. I was like, I was very observant.

There were like certain expectations. Smart and learned, this is how you're supposed to be. So it was always like I put me on a stage in front of 600, a thousand people. It's just fantastic for me. Like, I just love that energy. But it wasn't really acceptable for a little boy, especially a little gay boy back in the day in the day. So it was just like, you are not okay. Yes.

And was the therapy you were receiving as a child like uh the suppressive part, or what was it?

Yeah, it was my mother will say in retrospect, she's like, it was a form of conversion therapy. I was, you know, I didn't get sent away to a camp, but I went weekly for six years, and it was fascinating. You would talk about the the capacity of the mind. I remember two sessions in six years, right? And the first, like the early session, the beginning, I remember walking into this guy's office. Don't touch my desk, come over here and draw a picture of your family, right? And I remember drawing a picture of my family, and he asked me questions about that.

And I was like, Oh, good, I get to do art here because I was very kind of creative. And then towards the end of the therapy, I remember being, I can feel it right now as we're talking. Like we played on the rug, and we were I was only allowed to play with boy toys. Yeah. Okay. You have to play with army men and battleships. And I was like, Well, this isn't, I don't this is not fun for me. This is what we had to do. There were two, there were two dressers in his office, like and one had boy toys, and one had girl toys. And I was never allowed to play with the girl toys. It was it was a form of brainwashing, really.

I had to play baseball. You have to play baseball, be good at baseball. And I was terrified of being hit by the ball. My father was physically abusive to me, and so I became the catcher. I was like, oh, they have the face mask, they have the chest guard. I can be protected if the ball hits me. So yeah, it was it was a strange time. And you know, in retrospect, my parents were well intended because they wanted to make me a healthy, normal boy.

Yeah.

They they didn't know better, probably. No, back then, you know, uh being gay was a mental disorder. It was in all the books as a mental disorder. My uncle was a doctor, and he's the one that said, take him to therapy, we need to fix him. So they were listening to my uncle, who was a you know, physician named after I was named after him. Um, so it was a very different time. Um now I understand a whole lot more about what happened, and that's why I wrote a memoir about the journey and about the experience.

And is this time you are considering today as your trauma? What happened to you?

Yeah, I had I had a pretty traumatic childhood. Yeah. Um, physical, verbal, and then um my mother, who loved me, but was very passive because she needed my father. And so she perpetuated the experience. So it's it was a it was a very complicated journey. Um now I know why I'm a trauma expert and why I'm here to help the world, but it's because I really know it from the inside out. You know, I'm not just reading the books, I lived through the experience, which is important.

It's really important, it really is.

Yeah.

What helped you exactly to overcome your trauma and has it worked forever?

That's a great, great question. Um I am a lot I can tell you some things that didn't help first. This is what my fourth book is about. I'm writing about the the therapy process because I really my I learned, I think it was 2021, maybe after transcending trauma. I learned my purpose. Like I am here to bring trauma healing to the world, and uh there's a lot of things I did that didn't work, right? Um what didn't help me, even though it was useful, was 11 years of psychoanalysis five times a week on the couch for 11 years.

Okay, that was not helpful. Yeah, um, I talked and talked and talked, and I that's where I actually uncovered that I had a trauma history, but it was all about understanding it cognitively, knowing all the details, but nothing changed in here because where I wasn't accessing, I wasn't really accessing where the trauma is stored, right? So that was not helpful, even though he was a really nice guy. I like him, he was a very nice guy, well-intended. It certainly, I mean, it helped me identify my trauma, but it did not help me do any kind of healing work.

And it wasn't, you know, I was so fortunate to be with Bessel at the trauma center. I was a psychiatrist for the trauma center in 1992, is when I started working for him and learned about all the different things. One of the, you know, Bessel, like, let's do EMDR, everyone. Like, okay, fine, let's do sensory work, let's do yoga, you know. Like Bessel has this way of like bringing all this new stuff. And I was just along for the ride, and EMDR was helpful. I was this, I was a psychiatrist for the first EMDR Prozac study.

You did.

Okay. I gave everybody the Prozac. All my friends were doing EMDR, and we showed that EMDR was more effective than Prozac, you know. So that started like, oh, maybe EMDR can be helpful here and kind of being with it, and then did that for a long time, then shifted to sensory motor psychotherapy. It's like, wow, working on body sensations, it brought another level and layer to me, which was very helpful in learning how to be with the body and starting to process through sensation. And then I shifted and became the a lead trainer at the IFS Institute.

I wrote the trauma curriculum for the IFS Institute, and having that parts piece was also a super helpful component, right? Yes. So I did it. It was like layers and layers and layers of the way I did that. And then a lot of attachment-focused work has been very helpful too. You know, who's really responsible for healing and how much is the relationship important in healing? Because the safe most trauma happens in relationship, not all, but most. So I just added all these pieces over the years, and you know, it was like that helped, and that helped, and that helped, and that helped.

And now I'm creating a new program to put it all together. Okay. That's what I'm doing.

Curious to learn more about that in a bit. Yeah, sure. So all the elements you have you have been working with, uh, what's your today's understanding where trauma sits in our book?

It depends on who you're listening to on TikTok or Instagram. Does the body keep the score? Does the body not keep the score? Like it's this is our field. It's kind of funny as like this person who's out in the world in that way. Um I would say it doesn't have to be either the body or the brain. There's this new thing happening right now. The body doesn't keep the score. You know, new research shows, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, people, I've been teaching the neurobiology of PTSD and dissociation for a very long time. It's all in here. It's all in here. Like you look at the neural networks of trauma, they're in the body, they're in the emotions.

I think thoughts, feelings, physical sensations, like it's stored all here, right? The thing I will say that I'm teaching more and more of is when you look at the neurobiology, it really doesn't talk about the motor system and the nervous system very much. It talks about the autonomic nervous system, which is internal sensation, which is what a lot of body-centered therapies focus on. Yes. But the motor system is not really mentioned. So I'm doing a lot of work around movement and completed action.

Um, I have this thing I talk about in my new book called The Power of the Pause. People said, stop, excuse me. I don't know if I'm allowed to swear or you will edit it out. Stop fucking talking. Okay, stop fucking talking. That's not what I write it, that's not what I call it in the book. But we talk and talk and talk and talk. I did that for 11 years. You have to stop and shift internally to be with the experience internally. So does the body hold a lot of trauma? Absolutely. Is it also stuck in neural networks in the brain?

Yes, it is, right? It doesn't have to be an either or. We don't have to hold a view. It's like, yes, all of the above, right? So I think we need to work. I am incorporating a lot of neuroscience-applied theories and techniques and polyvagal theory and Dan Siegel's work, like, put it all together. Why do we have to be, it's in the body, it's only an emotion, you know? Sue Johnson's emotion-focused therapy. Yes, that's very important. So is distorted thoughts. Yeah. Like, I'm very much an integrator at heart. Like, it's not, that's one of the things I'll say.

I feel like part of my purpose is this next wave. There's all these great models that have evolved over the last 20 years. Yeah. Was only cognitive. Now we have all these other models. Put them together now. My job, one of I'm one of the people, not the person, to put them all together. Because right now, the the the our world in the field of mental health for trauma is a bit siloed. Are you a EMDR therapist? Are you a somatic therapist?

Are you a parts therapist? Like, yes, please. Yeah. Do you understand? Yeah. So I really, for me, I don't know why, but I'm really putting them together. So to teach people how to fluidly move in and out of these models, because there's a lot stored in that body, not just one thing, and not just one way.

Yes, and no one person can be treated the same way like another. Oh. So I like the integrative approaches is also what we always talk about in our treatment center. That's right. Because uh we want to see in where that person is, and and um maybe some need more embodiment, others need more of another type of therapy, and there can be not one size fits all.

And different people need different things at different times. True. Yes, you know, like so you might be all overwhelmed by I'm no good, I'm unlovable in a distorted thought place. And so you need to do either cognitive behavior therapy or EMDR and work with those distorted thoughts. And then maybe there's the era where you're getting all these physical sensations and you're getting these symptoms and medical problems, then you have to shift to moving to working in the body, you know?

Yeah, what what's interesting is we all talk about these methods and at conferences and and uh the different types of techniques, but what's sometimes missing out is in our view is the connection initially. So if there is no connection with that person, there you any method, any type of therapy is useless.

You know, it's one of the things that I'm trying to concretize and teach a bit is presence. I'll call it presence. Okay. I'm someone because of all the work that I've done, I'm very open, I'm available, I'm excessive, and people can feel safe with me quickly. That is important. Like that is so important around somebody wanting somebody feeling safe enough to go to the deepest, darkest places that they can't and haven't been able to go to on their own.

Yes.

Okay. So how do you teach that instead of the five steps of this or the six steps of that? I'm so not wanting to call this new program of mine a method. I'm like, I'm not gonna join the method group. I don't want to do that, right? I'm calling it the path, the path, path to healing trauma, right? Because it is a path and it's a journey. Yeah, and being present, some people just have whatever that thing is that'll that is this energy. You know, Gabor has a presence about him, you know.

I have a presence. There are a lot of people, a lot of the model makers have a presence, yeah, right. And that may be more successful than the steps of their model in some ways. How do you teach that? You know, um, I'll tell you two things. One is the more for me, the more healing I've done, the more I release the energy that's not mine, that I carried as a result of my trauma, allows my presence to be here more. So the more healing you do, the more capacity you have to be present. That's one thing.

Um, and then there is an awareness of trauma in a way. Like when I was in that therapy I referenced 11 11 years five times a week, he was a really nice guy. Yes, a very kind person. He did not have the capacity to go to the pain with me, and I felt that from him. Yeah, okay. I had a flashback, my first flashback years ago, called him on the phone. I was terrified. I was like, what the hell's happening to me? And he said all the right things in all the clinical ways.

Okay.

And I shut down. I was like, this is not safe. This person can't go there with me. Not for you. I couldn't feel his ability to join me in the pain. So I am trying to teach this thing. I don't think you either have it or you don't. Are you the special one that has that it factor? That's not the way it works. I believe that can I people need to access it within themselves. Most therapists, excuse me, go into this work not because it's interesting.

They go into this work because they've got something to heal within themselves, and you have to access that in order to help someone else be with their pain.

Yeah.

That's my view.

This is what I see also very often, like uh everyone is uh searching for self-healing uh in one or the other way. Totally. Um what I ask myself is also, is really one person treating me enough? Or because there is a saying it needs a village to raise a child, yes. So isn't it the the case also with with trolls? Or in general, uh mental health.

Uh I don't like the word healing, uh, but uh well I'm we don't know what the new title of my book is, but one of the titles we're playing around with is You Will Never You Will Never Heal.

Okay.

Yeah. Because it seems like something is wrong and you're 100%. Something's wrong. If you do this model, you will be done. Yeah. And that is not the way it works, right? It's not the way it works. So it's there healing, rising, evolving is more accurate than healed. Yeah. Right. So that is true. But I I do feel like there is a process, and I think we can teach this. One of the big pieces of this new program that I've created, the path, is giving the power and the agency back to the client.

Yes. Because and this is a paradigm shift, right? Right now, the insurance companies decide, or the the age, the government agency decides how many sessions you get, the therapist decides what model of treatment they're gonna do. Most of trauma treatment is taken out of the hands of the trauma survivor. Other people, other institutions are making the decisions for the person who was violated. And for me, I want to shift that. This is one of the things I'm really passionate about is let me educate you so that you have the correct information and let me help you connect to your wisdom, your intuition, so that you decide what you need.

It's re-empowering the client in their journey. And the so that's one big piece of this new program. The other thing is it's not gonna happen in isolation. I'm creating peer-to-peer community. You know, relationship you, I mean, trauma usually is a violation of a relationship. So healing in isolation doesn't make any sense. So connection is important and community is important. And you know, um, I was with Bruce Perry a couple months ago. Um, and he's a lovely guy, and he's such a smart guy.

And there's this one piece that I heard him talk about, which was really powerful, and um totally want to give him credit for this. He's like, you can't have neuroplastic change in a 50-minute therapy session. Yeah, like it's it's kind of unrealistic that you rewire your neural networks or create new neural networks in a 50-minute session. It's almost like therapy in and of itself is set up for failure. Like people are not gonna heal in their weekly therapy, right? And that's a big wake-up call for many of us, right? And that doesn't mean therapy is not helpful.

That is not what I'm saying. But I'm saying most healing happens outside the therapy office in your life, in the moments where you take a risk, and the moments where you show up differently, and the moments where you use what you've learned and up in psychotherapy and apply it in your life. So there's a lot. I I feel like I'm old, but there's a lot I have to do yet. You're not. I am old. I'm old, I'm 63 years old. Yeah. Okay, but I'm not done. I've got a lot of work to do.

You know, I'm not I'm not waiting for my retirement plan quite yet because I have this passion to like change the paradigm. I'm not gonna be the only one that's ridiculous. I'm gonna be one of the people that changes the way treatment is delivered because I think we've learned a lot since the beginning of this journey, right?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I I agree with that. And I think you have both views as a from a psychiatric perspective and from a psychotherapeutic perspective, and been open to uh to more experimental methods and and uh experience.

And they have personal experience. And personal experience. I have that too. Like that, like I know, like when somebody talks about pain, violation, being alone. Yes, I'm like, yeah, got it, been there, know my version. I don't know your version, but I also have the personal lived experience, yeah, which most therapists have. Some of them are not willing to talk about it, maybe as as much as I do, but we all nobody gets through this life without pain. Yeah, it's part of the it's part of the human experience.

It would be boring if we just go through life and we don't feel anything, right?

It's not how we learn, yeah, it's not how we grow. It's I call it like soul rising, right? It's not how our soul evolves is through positive experiences. It's good to have them, they're wonderful, but we learn much more through adversity if we take advantage and opportunity to learn. Because not everybody chooses to learn through all of their adversity.

If we go deeper into the path, uh totally fine. I wrote it in a memoir, it's out there for everyone to read. How does it look like? So, what different methods do you include, and what uh does it is it suitable for every every type of uh trauma, problems, disorders?

Yeah, I mean, so two different things. How like my journey personally is mostly about relational trauma or complex PTSD. And there's a there is a internal healing that needs to occur because trauma severs our connection with others, yes, but trauma also severs our connection with ourselves. And so there's a healing that we have to do, a repairing the internal relationships that get severed as a result of trauma and our relational and our ability to be intimate and close to somebody.

So there's a relational repair that needs to happen that's painful for people. We disconnect in order to survive.

Yes, right?

Kids will choose their parent over themselves 100% of the time for survival. Yes, because they have to. So there is a relational repair that needs to happen in that kind of trauma. And the field has evolved that we know about cultural trauma and institutional trauma and family legacy trauma, uh, um, grief and loss trauma, financial trauma, racial trauma, you know, gender trauma. So there's a lot of different types of trauma that we're aware of now in a way that we weren't before.

And those require different types of things. So I think the field outside of personal, relational trauma, there's a lot of different types of trauma that we're aware of that do require different things. You know, I last two years ago I went to Cambodia with this organization working on how countries get through adversity. You know, we have they have a program in Germany going through the Holocaust. How does a country, how does a society and a culture repair from something like that? Same thing in Cambodia with the genocide, right? And so there's there's a systemic issue that needs to be addressed in systemic trauma or institutional trauma, which is different than relational.

And you know, it's a I think about systemic trauma as bi directional. There's the individual healing that needs to happen, but there's also the systemic cultural piece that needs to happen. And it goes both ways. Like within a society, society and culture from the bottom up, the individuals in society and culture need to heal, but so does the people in charge. So does the institutions who make the rules and the guidelines need to own and take responsibility for what was done on the leadership level. So it needs to happen in both directions.

So it's a different, it's a different way to approach systemic or cultural or institutional trauma, religious trauma, growing up, you know, being sexually abused by a priest, for example. It there is individual healing that's required, but there's also institutional change that needs to happen in order for true healing to happen on both levels. So different types of trauma require different things, and I think we're really getting better at teaching that and learning what's necessary on that level.

So there's the personal and there's the institutional. Yeah.

But how do you influence more like a community-based uh trauma? How do you uh influence that, affect it, work with that level?

There's so what I'm learning, and I'm learning this, you know, um, because most therapists sit in an office and work with people individually.

Right.

And that's not gonna change systemically. So there's there has to be people that are interested and willing to work at the systemic level. That systemic change is much slower and it's harder. Working with leaders, working with government agencies, working with communities. There's a lot of people at the Trauma Research Foundation that are very passionate about working with communities. One of the things that I'm interested in, um, Bessel talks about this a lot, is Homeboy Industries, for example, is an organization in Los Angeles.

And it's a it's an organization that's a brilliant, beautiful organization that is a rehabilitation center for convicts and um gang members.

Okay.

Okay. And I'm helping them revamp their mental health system because there's so much trauma there. But they're healing in community, they're healing in their lives. Father Greg Boyle is the founder, founder of um Homeboy Industries, and he said, nothing heals like a job.

Yeah.

Okay. So he's talking about healing in community, healing in people's lives, giving them purpose and meaning, having them show up in community. It's a you walk into that building and it's a beautiful environment. And they have school programs and they have art programs and they have a kitchen where they're cooking and selling. And it's like that. It's like we mental health is is siloed in the office, you know. I'm it's it's gotta be in your life, and we have to start infiltrating organizations and communities.

A friend of mine, Mindy Pells, is uh a nutritionist and she does she had a horrible trauma around being stung by Portuguese man of war in the water years ago, and she started uh doing a group with a bunch of women surfing, and that's what healed her trauma from her jellyfish stinging 20 years ago. She's like, Frank, I did EMDR, I did IFS, I did sensory motor, and it didn't work. Yes, but being with a bunch of women where she felt safe in the water every day surfing actually helped heal her trauma.

So we've got to it's a co that's what we call the corrective experience. You have to have a corrective experience opposite the trauma in order to be able to do things differently. Yes, right?

But but as you said, also like it's a healing within a community. If you see others, yes, um, that's what show us and give us uh the sense of safety. I I'm safe. I don't so the more we are isolated, the more difficult it is. That's exactly right. Um, but the approach you're mentioning right now is like being in communities. These are already people who are out there, yes, uh yeah, in life. In life, but how to approach people who are more passive, who are more withdraw, um, and and still um on a on a on a social uh level.

We know we have Ruth Laneus talks about this, two different subtypes of PTSD. There's hyper-arousal and activation, and then there's shutdown and withdrawal and disconnection. Those are two different adaptations to trauma. I call them survival strategies. So the people that are isolated and withdrawn are also experiencing an adaptation to trauma, and they have to be reached in a different way than somebody who's out and yelling and screaming and activated, right? And interestingly enough, when you look at the neuroscience around hypoarousal, withdrawn, um, numbing, disconnection, bottom-up processes work better because dissociation is a top-down shutdown.

Yes. So those folks do need movement and body and community in order to kind of come out of their dissociation. Where people who are activated, it's their prefrontal cortex that is offline, they need structure and containment and you know, boundaries in order to recover. So these groups need different things. I I'll tell you about when you talk about I'm gonna call this the passive group, maybe more, than the active group. The first viral video I've ever had, four million followers or four million views on this, was about passive abuse.

Okay, we talk about the big, the loud, the yelling, the screaming, the hitting, which most people focus on first. Yeah, but what really resonated with a lot of people was what about the passive abuse, the not doing, the not saying, the not speaking up? Those combinations need to happen in order for abuse to perpetuate.

Yes.

You understand? And so most of us are drawn to the quiet parent, the one who's not yelling and hitting and screaming, because that's safer. But what we're not aware of yet, or not getting we're not getting is safe. We learn that love and safety don't go together because this passive uh person keeps us in an abusive situation. So we learn betrayal from the passive parent because they betray us by staying and not keeping us safe, right?

So, so the the passivity is just as toxic, if not more, for some people, than the active abuse. So you have to pay attention to both sides if you're gonna really heal. I call it parental wound pairing, right? That you can't just address the loud, the obvious, the you know. I used to, I used to wish for a broken bone when I was a kid. It's like, oh, then people can see it. Like if I had a cast, then they would know, you know, because there was so much hidden.

There was so much that went under the radar. Because you are seeing acknowledge that when that was more my mom than my dad, you know, and everything's fine, your father loves you, we're a happy family. This kind of desperation for keeping it hidden was was just as damaging as being hit. Yeah, it's uh there are so many uh aspects. Uh there are so many aspects of it, yeah.

I I heard you a couple years ago talk about movies and media, and um when we when we discuss how to reach the social level, yes, that's probably one of the biggest ones because so many binge watch and yes. Um that's right. Can you can you share with us how did you get to this idea and involvement uh to influence?

I have no idea. I can tell you that. Like, I cannot believe I have a I'm I'm living in Los Angeles and I have a production company, right? My memoir is being turned into a feature film, you know. We're working on uh the the body keeps a score and turning that into a documentary, right? Like, I cannot believe this is my life. I have to tell you, you know, I did it was really 2021. After Transcending Trauma was released, I went for a run and I was like, okay, world, it's yours. I'm a very spiritual person, like that's a big piece of my life. Yeah, and so I went for a run on the day of the book release, and I was like, okay, yours now.

I spent the whole pandemic writing it. This book is yours, people. And I got a message like literally, I'm not psychotic. I heard voice says, You're to bring trauma healing to the world. And I kind of was like, Me? Are you are you sure? Like, I'm a psychiatrist, like in Boston. Why me? I didn't even know what that meant at the time. I really didn't. This is five years ago now, and I kind of took on this mission, and my life has unfolded in these bizarre, crazy ways.

Things show up, opportunities show up. Um, the way I developed this media company is that I was out in LA um with an influencer person. Oh my god, you're Frank Anderson. Would you come out and, you know, I'd love to meet with you. Come to LA, blah, blah, blah. Like, okay, sure. You know, and we were, we went to this private club to discuss a show. Like, I like take your phone away because you're not allowed to take pictures in these private so you know, clubs in in LA. I didn't know what the hell I was doing there. And somebody asked about the body keeps the score, who has the rights, like called Bessel.

I'm like, who's got the rights to the body keeps the score? He's like, ah, this woman, Alexandra Ryan, does. I don't know that much about her, blah, blah, blah. So I reached out to Alexandra. She was a producer on The Sopranos, she's a big Hollywood person who's been working for years. We totally clicked and totally hit it off. She's like, let's form a company called Trauma Informed Media. We have another partner, uh, Jamie Roman, and we said it's called Trauma Informed Media. Let's bring trauma content to the world. If we're gonna change the world, it's gotta be on a global scale. And what better place than the entertainment industry?

I mean, Hollywood really has the narrative for culture and society, right? And there's, I mean, it that's changing now in the world of social media, but that's where all the stories are told. That's where people learn about life, right? And so there's a lot of trauma narratives that are not very helpful or healthy. And we thought, well, what if we can have a say on the narrative? Right? What if we can help? I mean, the body keeps the score is is the biggest book ever. It's on the New York Times bestseller list forever. Amazing. And if we right, like if we can bring that to media, that's gonna be a huge win, right?

So it just kind of happened. Like I was at a I was at an event the other day, and somebody said, What do you do? I'm like, I'm a psychiatrist. And my partner was like, Well, you're a producer. And I'm like, No, I'm not. Like, I'm Frank Anderson, I'm not a producer. I'm like, okay, I guess I'm a producer. I mean, we haven't finished a project yet. This is what I'm aware of. Our company's new, and we're real, we've got several different projects in the works, you know. But yeah, I really feel like, oh, when that message came to me, you're to bring trauma healing to the world. I'm like, oh, it's through media, is one of the ways.

Yeah, it's the biggest way, right? It's the biggest way. I have a hundred thousand followers. The world has millions of reach through movies and TVs and documentaries. So it's about reach, right? Yes. And it's not my message. This is something that's very important for me. This is not my message. I think too many people take ownership of their thoughts and their views as if they're theirs. This is not mine. This is information in the world that I am one of the people who is here to disseminate.

Yeah.

You know, and that feels really important to me. It's not Frank Anderson's ideas. I'm not the first one to have these ideas. Yeah. I'm one of the people that can help distribute them. And that's really fun. I can tell you it's very creative and it's very fun. And so I I can't believe this is my life. But I'm grateful.

Do you think does it work psychologically to uh train uh or influence through movies people who are watching? And in what way?

Well, I can tell you one of the other things that's happening now since I moved to LA is I'm working with a number of celebrities who have really awful trauma histories. Yeah. Okay. And the it's so beautiful for me to have impact on them and for them to have the impact on the world that they do. Their platform is tons bigger than mine. Right. So yeah, when your idol is on screen or your idol is, you know, releasing a new movie or album or whatever it is, those people influence a lot of people.

Yeah.

Right. And so it does make a difference. I can already see the difference that I'm having in helping people that have global reach. Right. That it's so rewarding. Yes. It's like it doesn't have to be me, but it can be me through story, through helping people with big platforms, through working with government agencies. Yes. Right? Through I'm helping helping homeboys. I'm like, if I can help that agency, so I I do think for me, therapists need to get out of the office and help on a on a global scale.

Now, I sat individually for 35 years, one-on-one, and that's not bad. But it's not the only way we're going to heal. For those of us who feel called to work on a on a systemic or global scale, we have to start infiltrating that. Yes. You know, that's that's the way to get it out there.

Yeah, I think it's genius. And uh that this is what I love about it. You can achieve and reach so many people and the young ones particularly. Uh I um I don't know how many years ago now this uh this one um cartoon movie came. Yeah, what was the name? Uh which one? Oh, Inside Out? Inside Out. I worked with them for a while. Uh I mean this is this is like um I didn't know what what we were in London, um, and my my children wanted to go to the movies, and they have chosen inside out. And I was blown away.

Yes, how how the communication, the narrative, what what what what so many little details you can learn from. I mean, as an adult, I can make sense to what's happening, and I uh very, very clear. But children, it's more passive, and and that's what what I loved about it.

It was brilliant. I mean, I w I would worked with them on a project that never got off the ground. Yeah, we were gonna bring professional athletes in to talk about moments that they kind of messed up and then looked at all the little voices in their head around it, and it never it never materialized. But I was at Pixar, I was at Pixar Studios a lot working with them around that, and they they did a lot of research, yeah, and you know, they did so much kind of looking at how emotions were valuable. This is what they said to me. We can't work together unless you know that every emotion has a positive intention. Yes, and I'm like, I'm in, like, this is good.

Like they rewrote that story the first inside out several times because Joy was the main character and was the hero of the heroine of the movie. And it wasn't until sadness, they brought sadness in, who really saved the day, that the movie really got its bones, like got the message for people like, oh my gosh, sadness is valuable. We have to listen and learn from that because that's more helpful than joy sometimes, right? Was a game changer for culture, community, and society.

Modern day version is this K-pop demon hunters. Like, if you like, like this is an amazing story about resilience, about believing in your true self, about moving forward through adversity. And, you know, it's a bunch of kid, teenage kids singing songs, but it has global influence. Yes, right. So that's important. Yeah. And um, that's the good news about social media and technology is that we have more access and exposure.

Yes.

But if it's the right message, it'll have a good impact. If it's the wrong message, it's going to send us in the wrong direction.

Yeah.

I I I I agree. This is one of the things really that I have a passion about is bringing the mental health field and the and the media world together.

Yeah.

Because they they've been separated for a long time. There were storytellers telling important, impactful stories, but they weren't mental health informed necessarily. Yes. You understand? And there's one of the things we've learned in our company is that you can't really just teach people about trauma by talking about trauma. It doesn't work. Yes. People don't want to sit down at the end of a really long day and hear about trauma stories. Yeah. Like it's like, no, there's too much. But like I'll name a couple of shows like Shrinking, Ted Lasso, The Bear.

This is what we're learning in our company is that you tell stories about things that are relatable and you weave healthy trauma narratives into the storyline. Yes. And that's what we're seeing is working, right? When you watch these shows, you learn a lot about psychotherapy if you watch shrinking, right? But it's funny, it's entertaining, it's lighthearted, and it's very serious themes. Same thing with Ted Lasso, global appeal, right? And that's why I think these programs are doing so well, is that they are reaching people in a way that's entertaining and fun.

When I do a workshop, just did a workshop a couple days ago here, and I'll I'm doing them one this uh later this afternoon. I'm like, all right, everybody, we're gonna talk about trauma and neuroscience and we're gonna have a blast. And people look at me like, what the hell are you talking about, Frank? I'm like, otherwise you're gonna sit there and be bored out of your mind and you're gonna shut, you're gonna shut me down. You're gonna shut off because you're like, oh my God, I don't want to hear about this. My life is too difficult, anyways. So if we don't bring joy to these really complicated topics, it's not gonna get the reach we need. It's really important. I love that, you know, and I can do that because of the work that I've done.

Yeah. Joy, and most people don't know they have trauma or any issues, and I think it may help them passively as well.

That's right, 100%. Oh, I didn't know my over-exercising is related. I didn't know my workaholism is related to, I didn't know. Like people have behaviors, yes, but they don't understand that the behaviors are a sign of their trauma. True. It's like the first layer. So bringing awareness is really important.

I mean, long form media is great, but today with social media, I mean, not many goals.

Three seconds for a hook. Three seconds for a hook is what my media social media team, you gotta hook them in three seconds. You know what I mean? So there's there's this whole, there's these microdramas that are becoming really popular now, and they're like little mini movies that are three to five minutes or 10 minutes at the most, right? Our attention span is really short, right? But we can watch a mini-series, you know, 10 five-minute mini-movies that is where people are paying attention to. Most movies are not long anymore, they're more like 90 minutes for a full-length feature than they are 120 or you know, whatever.

Like people's attention span is really short. I don't think that's great. Yes, but it's true. And so we have to meet people where they're at around getting their attention.

And you think social media is one of the reasons why this the attention span is.

Yeah, yeah. It's part of it. I mean, the edit, you look at these editing, I mean, people edit like crazy. It's like it's ridiculous. And the swipe, you know, boom, go, boom, go, boom, go. Yeah. I mean, we we've we technology has perpetuated this brain difference that we're seeing. Um, so we have to work with it the best we can to still get a good message out in the medium that's kind of more accessible and available right now, which is, you know, it's for the the good news is it's not like the studios have control over the whole narrative anymore.

But everybody can put content out there. So it's not only controlled by a few at the top. That's the good news. The bad news is there's a lot of people out there that are putting bad content out there, also. So it's very mixed. Yeah.

I mean, Genie is out of the bottle, so we cannot.

Jeannie's out of the bottle.

Uh and and the the the the question is can we control the the content which is on social media? Uh you you said everyone can control it and create. Is content on social media, if it's short, bad or good? Because in the last years, it has been everything is bad about social media and we should stay away completely. And what's your take on that?

No, I don't I don't agree with that. I mean, I'm one of the people that wants to keep putting good content out there. You know, I I happen to be an expert who is also good in the general public. So is all social media bad? No. I I work really hard, my team works really hard to produce really good content for a lot of people have shown up to me on the street, say, thank you so much. I was at a I was at a a New Year's Eve party this past year, and this woman is at the party.

I don't know her. I don't know. She's like, Oh my god, you're Frank Anderson. You saved my life. I'm like, what? She's like, I was suicidal. I just got out of the hospital and I watched your videos over and over and over again. You literally saved my life. Could I come and talk to you for a minute? And I'm like, sure. Like the perfect total stranger who was watching and listening to my content, and it literally saved her life. Like that exists, that does happen. So if we're thoughtful about what we're putting out there in a way that's not only has a good hook, but it has a good content and it's useful, I'm gonna just keep I can't I keep I've said for many years, if I can bring more love and compassion and healing to the world, I'm good.

Right. So I'm gonna keep pouring it out there in the midst of all the other stuff that's out there too, so that at least people have access to this content also, instead of just letting it be the other content. So I don't think you know, it's like I remember my grandfather when I was a kid. The I used to walk three miles uphill barefoot in the snow to get to school, you know, that kind of you know, it was wet back in the day, right? And I was always like, Well, grandpa, I get that, like that was your world, but the world is this now.

Yes, and so we have to deal with this world, not that world. And I've always held that. I'm like, well, this is the world today. I can't go back to the way it was, but I can influence this world with what I have to offer. Do you know what I mean? So I'm doing all the things, I'm showing up in all the ways because this is the world, and we have to deal with the way it is.

Yeah, uh, like like we have to meet every client, patient where they are, we have to meet this generation where it is, and what uh technologies and uh the whole environment brings with it. And I also believe not everything on social media is bad because I've I've I have children 12, 14, and 17, and I can see now in different age groups what kind of content they watch, and uh and uh I want to be close to it, uh of course, to understand uh uh is it in the right direction? Yes, and I I can really see there is good content out there, they learn from it.

Like that's right. I mean, my my daughters they prepare meals uh for breakfast and they have their recipes from from like the healthy lifestyle, um, they get from there. I mean it's true without us telling. If we would tell them, they wouldn't get it. You got it, they wouldn't get it. They they don't want to hear about it that's right from us.

It would be great if we revamped education to include social media in a way. I like I have two boys, and neither one of them are academics, right? I was all about academia, that was my whole thing. Neither one of them are at all, and they're both really smart in very different ways, and they learn through social media. My oldest is a professional race car driver, he school was not his thing, but he is so intelligent because he's he's been educated through social media. He knows about astronomy, he knows more about politics than I ever will.

He he he's a car fanatic. The education that he has gotten online is just brilliant. And if you help kids with discernment, I mean, what if educators what if you went into school and instead of sat while a teacher lectures about reading, writing, and arithmetic, each kid gets to tailor make a curriculum that they're interested in that they get exposed to good content on? It you know, like they're it the education system, and I know there's a lot of education that uses social media now. They have all whiteboards in this classroom and they incorporate that, which I think is great. But yeah, I've been so struck with by the way my kids have educated themselves through social media.

And have people learned how to kill themselves on social media? Yes, we see that. Have also people learned really wonderful, incredible things because of access to information. So I think there's a way to do both. We can't pretend it's not here, yes, and we have to have some. That's part of what trauma informed media is about is I'm gonna bring good content into the narrative so that people can get this information also. And most people are discerning, right? If you trust them, it's like giving power back to the the consumer who's consuming the information.

What do you think about this content? What do you think about that? They know. My youngest on the spectrum is like, I'm not going to the deep dark web. I'm like, what's the deep dark web? You know, and he's got this whole idea of like there's this place with horrible bad content, and I'm not going to the dark web, Papa. I'm like, okay, fine. I don't quite know what the hell that is. But he he not, you know, we know what's right. I mean, some people choose bad things and we'll work with that.

Yeah. Yeah, as as everything. It can be can be bad, it can be good. I mean, if I do too much sport, it can be bad.

Yeah.

But that's right. If I'm in a balanced state, uh it's it's healthy and positive. That's exactly right. I'm probably there as well.

We've got to just keep the people that care in this way, gotta just keep putting the good stuff out there in all the ways we can.

Yeah.

And I'm gonna say now, because of the way the world is, it has to be outside of the therapy office also. And I really want to be a big part of that change.

Yeah, and thank you for that.

You're welcome.

What is close to your heart you want to pursue now in the next years of your life?

I mean, it is this new program that I'm talking about. The path to healing trauma. I mean, I I when I hesitated, I'm like, in my personal life, in my like professional life, because they're both important in very different ways than they used to be. You know, I was really kind of work-heavy in the past, needing to make an impact. I don't feel the draw so much because it's actually happening. So I'm already I'm here doing that now. So having a really important intact loving family is a big priority for me, teaching these this next generation what healthy love and attachment and safety is, not uh perpetuating transgenerational trauma, super important to me.

And I really feel good about that because I'm doing that now in a way that I wasn't before. So that in the personal life, that's really important. Living an authentic loving life and being an example, you know, for my family is a joy, it's a great joy. Um, but professionally, it is bringing trauma healing outside of psychotherapy. There's not enough therapists in the world to heal all the trauma that we're ailing, that the world is so affected by. And so I'm really passionate about teaching people how to heal in community, how to heal outside of psychotherapy.

This program, The Path to Healing Trauma, is for the general public. Okay. And it's like get a pure part. I want to create a community of people that are healing together. I want to create the awareness of when they need to get help and when they can do things on their own. I want to create communities that work together with education, that they understand what they need when, and they are in charge of their healing. They work on what they want to, when they want to, and in what order. Not like, oh, you're suicidal. I want to work on your suicidality because that's my agenda, right?

And I want to train therapists in this integrated model. So I have two branches to this new program. The integrated path is to teach a bunch of clinicians how to truly integrate. They're doing it anyways, but they're doing it secretively because they're supposed to do one model. So I want to teach people how to truly be integrative so that when the people in the general public need help, there's a group of people that they can reach for, right? And so that is a passion of mine right now. And I'm also, somebody asked me to start a sexual abuse treatment center in LA, a group program.

And I'm passionate about that too. Is it specific for sexual abuse?

Yeah.

Um, sexual abuse is an identity trauma, is one of the things that I call it. Like when you're violated, it's not like a part of you is sexually abused. You are violated, your identity is violated in a way that race and gender and orientation are violations of identity, I believe. And so I'm really excited about bring creating a group program for people outside of therapy to learn how to heal from sexual violation. So that's another project I have that I'm passionate about.

So yeah, it's interesting. It's like all the ways, all the ways to have impact um the media company, you know. Um, my memoir is being turned into a feature film. I really want to get my story out into the world so that people, you know, one of the most rewarding things about writing that memoir was how many people reach out to me to say, oh my gosh, I relate. Oh my gosh, I relate. That's the biggest joy of writing that memoir. They don't have the same story, but adversity is universal when we tell it through story.

Absolutely. Right? And so that feels really important. I feel so lucky. I feel so fortunate that this is my life. I really do. Never in a million years did I think that this is where I would be in my life. Never. But now when I look back on my history, I understand why I was I entered this world being hit as a baby in the crib. Because now I understand that I was here to go through it so that I can help people heal from it.

And so it's pretty good. I feel pretty lucky.

Yes, and following that passion is very powerful in one's life.

Yeah, it really is. It brings great, it brings me great joy and I have a lot of gratitude.

What do you do in your private life to stay in balance?

That's a really good question. People are like, How the hell do you do all this stuff, Frank? I have a lot of people working for me now. That's how I do it. I hire yeah, it's like I can't do all this stuff by myself. So I have a big team of people that work with me. So there's a lot of talented people that are doing a lot of stuff so that I don't have to do all the things. But I just got back from a vacation with my husband. Traveling is one of my big passions. I mean, I'm lucky to travel all over the world because of work, but I really love traveling with my family. So we just got back from Turkey and Greece, and we did a cruise um traveling.

Um, so I love travel. I love food, I love ethnic foods. I love, I'm an avid. Exerciser. I've been exercising my whole life and I live right next to the canyons in the Santa Monica Mountains now. So I'm hiking three to four times a week. I exercise all the time. I love being in nature. Nature is my healing place. Um I love music. Um, each chapter of my memoir had a song attached to it because I healed through music, creativity. So yeah, and and I love friends and community.

I really am such a relational person. I'm lucky that I am. So I have really great friends. Um, so yeah, I I could use a better balance. That's for damn sure. But I do have things, you know. I'm never gonna, I said to my husband, don't think I'm gonna be 80 sitting on the porch on a rocking chair. Yes, watching the world go by. I'm gonna be busy and active, yes, but I also like having fun now in a way that I wasn't it wasn't as accessible to me before.

Good. Yeah. I mean, we have to grow into a balanced life, I believe. Yes. Uh we are not born and balanced for the rest of our life. And the word balance by itself uh is is is the the meaning of it is not perfection. No, we have always to be in totally like, am I doing too much? Am I doing too little? This is what happens to me sometimes, um, yeah, or in my career uh as a business owner and and um um starting different businesses over years. Sometimes I I get to a peak, I I'm doing too much, and then I have to correct, and then I'm too little, and then I get bored, and then I have to do, but that's that's the way we are writing in life, right?

It it requires self-awareness and self-connection to be in balance. Yeah, okay, you've got to learn to listen, right? I do this with food all the time. Like, um, hey, carbohydrates are not doing very well for me in my system right now, right? I get I need to stop, you know. Hey, I need more protein. Hey, you know, I have to eat more fruit. It's kind of like if you listen, your body will tell you what you need and what you don't need, right? Versus like I need, you know, I'm gonna take have that dessert because it's gonna soothe the stress and the overwhelm is a very different listening, right? The same is true with our life in balance.

It's like I am out of balance, I'm too stressed, I pay attention to sleep. You know, am I able to sleep through the night? Am I waking up thinking about things? Yeah, you know, so if if we learn to listen, we can be in better balance because our body knows, the body keeps the score. Yes, yes, and the mind listens to the body, and the mind listens to the body, exactly.

If you if you could share one wisdom, one information to everyone who's listening right now, what would that be?

Really, healing's possible. I really want people to know that. Um, you the energy that you have absorbed is not yours, and it can be released. I believe everybody's capable of healing, and I'm teaching that by example. And I want every like people that are out there hopeless, feeling horrible, are in a really dark place. I want them to know that healing is possible because I I truly believe it. I think it's a hard road. I think life comes with adversity so that we can soul evolve.

But I think it's possible, and I want everybody to know that that's true.

Frank, it was a pleasure having you here. Thank you for having me.

It's lovely.

Thank you for for the work you do. I think it's it's very valuable, not just uh uh for for the listeners here. It's reaching so many people out there, and uh, I'm I'm curious uh when your next book uh is going out. When will that be?

We're submitting the proposal today. Oh so literally I'm a little tired this morning because I was up late with the final edit. So the proposal's done. We're submitting it and we're gonna start shopping it, you know, within the next couple weeks, and we'll see. Beautiful. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the paths uh the path, the path to healing trauma. Yeah, the path to healing trauma is already out to the general public. So that course is available on my website, frankandersonmd.com. And the integrated path will be released in the next three weeks. So this information will be out there in ways for people to start joining this community and kind of healing independently as an individual person in the world and do an integrated model of therapy for clinicians.

So I'm super excited about this next chapter.

Great. Thank you, and good luck with everything. Thank you. Thank you for being here.

Yeah, thank you for having me.