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How it started to show up for me was an anxiety. I was told maybe yoga could help that. And so I remember going into a yoga class. There were mirrors all around. It was hard for me to even just look at myself. I had this powerful release in the class. It literally dropped me to my knees. I was going to these classes because I was trying to deal with my grief. And that is how grief yoga was born and came to be.

Your sister passed away. And what did this to you?

It connected me to the fragility of life. I don't believe that grief is a form of weakness. I believe that grief is an expression of love. Grief is the price that we pay for love.

I know you practice laughter. Yoga. What is this?

The laughter can move whatever emotion we're going through, but it can also tap us into sometimes grief bursts and sometimes love bursts, too.

Can you guide us through a yoga?

Laughter okay, Yeah.

Sure.

Sure. Okay. Are you gonna do it with me?

Welcome to the Living Alive and Balanced podcast. My name is Abdullah Bullard. I'm the founder and CEO of the Balanced Rehab Clinic. My guest today is Paul Denniston, founder of Grief Yoga, author of Healing Through Yoga, and a pioneer in helping people move through loss using the body. In this episode, Paul shares his personal story from navigating guilt, identity, and the deep grief of losing his sister. He opens up about the way grief shapes his relationship to his body, and how yoga became the space where healing could finally begin. We explore how grief shows up in the spine, throat, hips and breath, how sound, movement, and laughter can unlock emotional release, and why suppressed emotion needs motion to move forward. I hope you will enjoy. Paul. What motivated you to do what you do today?

I grew up in a Southern Baptist background. My father was a minister. My mama was a Christian school teacher. I was a shy kid growing up in Texas.

I didn't necessarily know how to deal with emotions, whether it be sadness or anger. my family, coming from a religious standpoint, was, you know, taught about how to just be blessed and grateful. And if you're sad, hey, boys aren't supposed to cry if you're angry. you know, kind of tuck that away. and so these challenging emotions, I didn't necessarily know how to deal with them. And so I first started off by using food as a way of numbing it out, and so I was a very heavy kid when I was growing up, and I would, in the hot days of summer, even wear a jacket to cover my body, almost just as a way of protection. I wasn't really I didn't I wasn't good at exercise. I was just insecure about my body so I would eat my feelings. I was bullied as a kid too. And so when I was bullied, there was a point where I would kind of hold it and then it would explode at times because I didn't know how to manage the anger.

I was never taught how to deal with anger. And so the anger would kind of take control and I would fight back and it became dangerous. And so there would be these emotions that I didn't necessarily know how to handle them anger, sadness. And so as I became older, it shifted for me from food to alcohol to drugs and to sex. That was a way for me to numb out these challenging emotions, or to come from a place of, like, action and doing, to try to run away from it, run away from challenging problems. And how it started to show up for me was in anxiety. Anxiety was where I started to see something needs to be addressed here, and I was told maybe yoga could help that. And so I remember going into a yoga class and, there were mirrors all around, and I felt like, it was hard for me to even just look at myself. there was so much judgment that I was going through. And even within the yoga class, there was so much comparison that I was doing.

There's so much better than I am. but what I also noticed, too, was there was a sense of trembling that even happened in being present and moving my body. And it reminded me a little bit of like a, a teacup that was just kind of like slowly boiling and it just wanted to explode. And the ways that I would handle the explosion at times would either be by using drugs or sex or alcohol, or to run away from it. And so I really allowed myself to just say, be in this discomfort and move with it. And then I had, by staying present to it, this powerful release in the class, it literally dropped me to my knees. And I think part of that had to do with the kindness of the teacher was a moment for me to really understand how much I was holding in my body and the importance of staying present to it. And so, as a yoga teacher, I. I learned many different forms of yoga, whether it was Hatha yoga or Vinyasa Sir.

Kundalini yoga, restorative yoga, laughter yoga, moving with the energy centers. But what I was really starting to see was I was going to these classes because I was trying to deal with my grief. There was grief that was beneath the surface that was not being addressed. I was there was so much that I was dealing with grief about. My my sister was, she was my best friend growing up, and she was dying of cancer. I was grieving the, developmental trauma, the relational trauma of not receiving the love and the care from my primary caregivers, my parents, that I had wanted. I was grieving, feeling abandoned by people that I cared about and loved. I was grieving the, The decades of of substance abuse. And there was there was so much grief that I didn't know how to be with it, but I knew that I was holding it in my body. And so yoga became this container for me to start to process it. But then I was also in the midst of, my addiction.

And I had a traumatic fall one time, and that stopped me in my tracks because it helped me to see, first off, I was broken physically because of the traumatic fall, but also I was a little broken emotionally too. And so in that space of that rock bottom, it gave me the space to say, maybe I need to find a better path here. And that was the beginning path of my recovery, which at this point I'm 12 years sober. but it was also a place for me from a yoga teacher standpoint, to begin to create a practice that was intentional with grief and trauma. and that is how grief yoga was born and came to be.

Thank you for sharing that. So there were multiple multiple stories you have now touched.

Yeah, I broke it. Yeah. You want to break down some of those stories?

Yes, I would like to. So how old were you in the early days? were you started to feel this anger and sadness? And couldn't.

Oh, my gosh.

I mean, the earliest days was probably when I was, I was about 7 or 8. I mean, I think I started to feel a little bit. Well, I was afraid of anger as what it was. So like, take for instance, you know, I think we model things from our parents. And my father would bottle it up, and then there would be a point where he would explode with anger. Right? And it would just be like, oh my God, that's frightening. And so I did that for myself. And so it started to show up for me, I guess, like around 7 to 10 when I felt like I was being bullied, but I kind of kept it hidden inside and I let it boil until it exploded and I fought back. But there was always something dangerous about anger. That was always I felt unsure of. And so, yeah, trying to develop. But the thing is, is that I had to develop a relationship with anger because that's part of the grief.

Do you think you learned it from your parents, as you mentioned?

I mean, we learn how to model specific ways of dealing with emotions. I think our parents sometimes, you know, and they're just teaching what they've learned before. But I think that sometimes we judge specific emotions. And for them, for me, it was about sadness and anger that there was a judgment about that that didn't make it sometimes appropriate to express it. And so I think that all emotions are valid. And so I think that how to be with it and to express it is, is is a is an important thing that we have to sometimes learn and develop on our own. If our parents didn't teach it.

When did you feel to be different?

growing up in Texas, I was different because I wasn't like all of the other kids who were just, like, playing football and stuff. There was a place for me that felt a little safer. I had a little, under the stairs, a little kind of container.

That was my, like, my little safe space that I would kind of play records and color. And it was like a little kind of a hidden space for me. So I think probably in that point I started to see, like, I felt different in some ways because of just maybe even then, I was starting to just see at times what a little bit of an introvert that I could be, even just as a child.

And you had people who you could go to where you felt Also this sense of safety, or was it purely the space?

No, I had to find it within. I had to find it. It was there people. I mean, there were places where you could find love. I, my my sister, my sister was that for me. And she was the person who passed away from cancer. I could find a kind of a a little bit of a companion within her that that was dear to me. But I think I had to. I think sometimes one of my spirit animals is a turtle, that sometimes there are moments where I have to kind of like, find a little safe container for protection.

And I think that that's a it's a helpful quality, and it's a helpful thing for me to also be able to say, and sometimes you need to stick your head out of the shell, and you need to slowly take one step at a time and move forward.

How old were you when this happened? With your sister?

My sister when I was, as a yoga teacher, first started to become a yoga teacher. That's when she shared that she, was diagnosed with advanced stage four cancer. And so, so there was a lot of anticipatory grief that I was dealing with. in preparation of her passing. She ended up living, like, 6 to 7 more years because of the intense chemotherapy, chemotherapy and radiation. But she was also, trying to stay alive for her children. She didn't want to feel like her. Her children, that her that that she abandoned her children. And so it was within that process to where I even began to do the deeper work of recovery within myself, too.

And that was when grief yoga Started to come to be.

Okay. That was then, much later than when you started.

It was. Yeah, it was around, I think like 2012.

The moment where you then tried to compensate your emotions feelings with, with substances. Yeah. How did you get into it and at what age?

Oh, gosh. I probably was around, I think so in college. I guess I was, like, starting to learn to drink because it started to loosen me up and make me feel more comfortable with other people, other kids and stuff. and so that happens like starting around 18, I guess. 19. and then, I moved out of Texas and I went to Chicago and then Chicago. It started off with marijuana and then, it slowly it started to just pick up the pace, then with, with ecstasy, at times cocaine. Hain. so it just became a place where, the substances in some ways helped to maybe, push away the challenging emotions in the moment.

But it also gave me a sense of what I thought was a sense of freedom to this other part of myself that was, I thought was more interesting. but what was really happening that I didn't know at the time was it started to make me, more disconnected with people. because I started to depend upon the substances and I would use them, on my own, and then I, I it just, I was on a different level with other people, and so it just felt more of a separation when in essence, I was really wanting connection, but.

it created the opposite.

It did. Yeah.

Initially not, but later on or.

Yeah. I mean initially it created a sense of like wow expansion and stuff. But then I always thought it was like some of the substances they used to be my friend when I was but then it was like, sometimes friends aren't as good for you as you. You know, as you change and evolve, it's like the friend is making me paranoid.

Or the friend is is not helping me be to be the best version of myself. So it was like a friend that was almost starting to betray me in some ways. So it was a reevaluation on the relationship I had with it, but it was also a place of like, I feel like I want to walk a different path. I think one of the things that really connected, that I always felt like I wasn't living my greatest potential, and in some ways I felt like the substances were preventing me from doing that.

When was the moment, where you realized you needed to change. And how did you get into therapy? What type of therapy?

Well, I was doing therapy for a while there, and I, But I think that the moment that it changed for me in hitting the rock bottom, I would say would be the traumatic fall, the the acknowledgement of, like all of the, the grief that I was holding and that I just knew that something needed to change. So yeah, it was around 20, around 2012, I would say that it just was like, it's I feel like I need to try to walk a different path here.

and I didn't know whether I could do it. I was I always heard that, you know, that there are some dragons you can't slay in this life. And I felt like perhaps my connection to substances might be that. And, it was through both the path of recovery, and it was also through yoga that helped me to slowly take one step at a time. Back to, standing up and moving forward.

Yeah, this was a difficult moment. I, on the one hand side, you believed this is this is something you may not get out from, but. Oh, sure, you still had this support. Was it external support? Were the people around you who were present?

I had, I had, I had friends who, were concerned for me and wanted to help and support me. And so it became a point where, you know, I really reached out to them asking for help. it was times for me in, going and going to 12 step doing, doing the deeper work within myself and having it witnessed from, sharing it with others and having people witness and see it was a huge thing for me to, but also a key component was bringing an embodied practice to it, to the embodiment.

Also of it was where a huge portion of the transformation also occurred.

This was already a time where you were practicing yoga.

I was, I was, but I it was before that I was, I was using substances and going to the yoga classes. So you know, but but it, it, it came to shift for me. where, what would it be like to live a different path that was more clear headed? That was a place of accepting, the discomfort of these challenging emotions. And, and to be with it and to move with it.

Do you think someone has to reach, like, a rock bottom or like a certain awakening and event happening in their life to to decide and make the step towards recovery?

I don't think it has to be part of it. but I think that it does create a a and a rock bottom can be different for everybody. You know, some people's rock bottom can be really low, and some people's rock bottom can be just a place of like, I don't want to do this anymore.

So I think that it doesn't have to be the same, but I do think it does provide a pivotal moment and space to say I'm not happy with the way it is now. I want it to be different. How can I how can I do that? Did you have a rock bottom myself? Yeah.

Yes, yes. I also experienced at some point, but without addiction. It was not an addiction involved, but more like life circumstances. Overwhelming, sort of a burnout landing up with a heart attack at the hospital. Just thinking. Rethinking how I should live my life going forward. Right. and that was kind of the beginning of learning and progress and, and, and ending up what what what I do today. Right. Yeah. So it was it was a rock bottom in a way, but it was also my superpower today.

Yeah, totally. I totally identify with that. Yeah, yeah. It's, the rock bottom of feeling broken and not being able to manage challenging emotions.

My superpower now is from a movement and a yoga perspective, is this to take these challenging emotions more as fuel for transformative healing? So that is true. The thing that can be our biggest, crutch can also be our biggest, powerful resource, too.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, I love that.

When was the first time you you entered a yoga session?

Probably 30 years ago. 30 years ago? Yeah. And, Yeah, yeah. I, you want me to talk about it or something, please? Yes. Okay. There were mirrors all around the walls. I looked in and I was just like, oh my gosh, it was hard for me to look at myself because, you know, I don't I didn't want to look at myself, really. it was kind of this dark and kind of mysterious atmosphere. People were setting up their space, kind of set up my space. But also I was so, like, enamored with just kind of like, who's all around. And I was looking at just seeing people.

And then there was this kind of fear of like, okay, I'm about to start something, and I don't know if I'm going to be any good at it, but let's just give it a try here. and gosh, I remember, just kind of comparing myself to other people and to just think I wasn't good enough. And I think what happens in a yoga space is also a little reflection of what happens out in life, too. You know, I was out in life, I probably felt like I wasn't good enough or I was comparing myself to others. So it really makes you. It forces you to be present in a yoga class of what? Those things come up. But there was just one moment. I remember I was like, in this warrior two pose, and I was trying to. So I was so trying so hard to get it right. And I'm literally just kind of like shaking with my fingers and my hands and stuff. And the yoga teacher could totally see that, that I was struggling.

And, there was a point where I was like, looking at the exit door and I'm like, I could just run right now, which is what I was normally I used to do is like, just run and either go eat or use or just try to avoid this discomfort right here. And I just allowed myself to say, just stay five more minutes. Five more minutes, okay. And so the yoga teacher could see that there was an inner struggle that was happening. And she kind of came over and whispered to me, and she goes, it's okay to rest when you need to rest. And that kindness she provided, which I was having a hard time, you know, connecting to that myself. Dropped me to my knees, gave me this powerful release that I had been holding. and it was almost like I couldn't hold it anymore. And but it also there was a there was a point to where it felt okay. It felt safe to feel that and then to say, okay, I can step back up and join where everybody's at again.

And so I came to learn that, that, that yoga literally means union connection. And I think what a powerful thing that can have when people are experiencing overwhelm or grief, that place of disconnection, how that can help. And I the heart of what yoga is about for me is about compassion. And so I don't know, it just gave a sense of, of, of presence, and a way of connecting to my body that touched me in a deep space.

So compassion to yourself.

Compassion to myself. Compassion for the part of myself that is overwhelmed. That is hurt, that is beating myself up. That is comparing myself to others. Compassion for myself. To say it's okay to rest when you need to rest. It's okay to feel what you're feeling. That compassion to self is something that I tapped into that made me go, I need, I need more of this.

You felt this from the first yoga session.

It was like a slice of the pie. It was just. It wasn't the whole thing, but it was a little.

It was a little experience that that said, I want more of this. Yeah. So it was something that, it was a big moment for me because it kind of did start to change the way that I connected to exercise. It was this place where I was like, I can this type of exercise, I can kind of connect to.

You looked at yoga at that moment as an exercise activity.

Yeah, for sure. It was an exercise. Yeah, it was an exercise, but it was also connecting me to something deeper that I was like, what is that? And it was a deeper sense of myself.

Yeah. And obviously the people the, the yoga teacher made made an impact on you.

And the thing is, is she had no idea the impact that she would make, which reminds me and teaches me that random acts of kindness can mean more than we ever can fully even know.

What was your yoga journey starting then.

The yoga journey, then starting then was it's like I found something new.

And so I became fascinated about power yoga. And I was like wanting to like, you know, do the head stands and like, just really, really.

Sort.

Yes, master it and become this powerful.

Yoga.

Man. Haha. and so, and this was still, you know, when I'm kind of like in the midst of my substance abuse and drugs and stuff too. And so but I think that it was a way for me to focus a little bit on finding that sense of power in a world where I was trying to not deal with grief or all of the losses that were coming to me, or the guilt and the shame about the substance abuse. And so it was a place where it's like, I'm just going to focus on this, you know, No powerfully yoga strength here and the way that. Yoga or just life in general, I would say taught me is that said, you think you're strong. Here's here's a little accident that we're gonna, like, make you stop and force you to be with all of this that you're trying to run away from.

And it was just a place of, like, a a feeling of brokenness, you know? And, what does that feel like? And in some ways, it actually tapped me into a deeper inner strength, but not at the time for myself. At the time, it was like, no, you need to sit with your what it's like to feel, to be broken, you know? And, And I needed that. Am I being vulnerable? No, that's.

That's I'm grateful for it. And thank you for for for opening up. Sure. that that's the beauty about yoga and what it can do, with oneself and, and being there then also for, for each other. You started the first session 30 years ago, right? It was probably a rare that a man enters a yoga session at that time. Or how how was it?

Well, I do know that that that more women are drawn to yoga. I understand that I never identified as, like as a kid. I'm going to go play football.

I just feels like that's not kind of who I am. So, yeah, I'll enter a space where it's just women and that's okay. Or there's a there's a couple guys. It's it's okay. I don't it doesn't, it doesn't do anything for me.

I think it has also come, come a long way from there at that time till today. Today it's much more, Recognize. I mean, I do yoga, right? Everyone I know would do yoga. It's not. Not something you all know that it's only for for for for women, right? How have you seen the development happening over the decades?

Well, I'll tell you what. Actually was more of a challenge at times is, is that sometimes people are afraid that yoga is a religion. And so I got a lot of backlash, actually, from my, my family feeling like, yoga was a religion that I was getting into and that I was praying to a false god or that it was going against my religion. So I think that there can be sometimes this fear of yoga, from a spiritual standpoint too, like, am I going to be worshipping a false god or is this going to go against my my beliefs? So, I think I experienced more of a concern or a backlash with that just from my own family.

Did you find another type of spirituality? Practicing yoga and getting trained?

I grew up believing of a judgmental god that, would be someone who would punish. and I at this point transitioned my beliefs that I have. It's a loving God that that is allowing of all. And so I think that for me within yoga there is a presence. I mean yoga is a connection of mind body, spirit. And I think within spirit it can be whatever you bring your your faith and your belief to it. Like when I told my mom, you know, when she was concerned this was going against her belief, I was like, I was like, mom, if you want to use this as a place of body prayer and use this as a place of praying to Jesus the entire time, I'm like, that's okay. Yes. You know, so I think that sense of allowing is is needed. And so the way that I approach yoga, both as a student and as a teacher, is to just kind of say, all is welcome, rest when you need to.

compassion is key. And so I guess in some ways that's how I've, I've shifted my personal faith, but I've also brought it into the sacred space for me within yoga too.

You mentioned mind, body and spirit or soul. Yeah. So we hear this very often, but how is your understanding of each of them?

Yeah, I think that there's a there's a mind body connection that, is is key. And I think for me, spirit is all around, it lives within and it is all around me. spirit connection to something greater than myself. I'm grateful for, you know, my mind to help me to problem solve, to discern. I'm grateful for my body, to help me to move and to experience this life. yeah. And I think that they're in grief too. There is a mind body connection that happens to I think that when we let's say when something happens, when grief or trauma, our mind can become dark and it can worry about, what's going to happen? Or it can have regrets of the past and what can happen in that mind body connection then, is then the body can start to tense up and start to hold on.

The body remembers. Right. So there's that mind body connection or let's say something happens to our body. We've been diagnosed with a health illness or we've had a traumatic fall. Then our mind starts to panic and worry about worst case scenarios. So instead of that place where that mind body connection, where it's like something's wrong to actually just go, wait, no. What happened? I've had a loss. Something's happened. You know what happened? And to develop that compassionate inquiry, I think, is a really important thing within the mind body connection.

What about the soul?

What about the soul? I mean, I really believe the soul is in some ways the connection to spirit. I think that the the soul is, I'll just tell you my personal beliefs of the soul. I think that there's this there is an inner wisdom that that lives within, that is part of this soul. And I think that when I come from a place of a soul, there is a place of like connection to me speaking to you.

There's a connection to the the chaos and craziness of what's going around me. There is a connection to all things, the little ants that are walking along the the street, the birds that are flying. There is a sense of kind of connection that you feel that for me, it taps me into a soul connection. And it's it's hard. It's like it's hard to stay in that. But it's a little bit like plugging in. I love Star Wars, and it's almost like to connect to the force, right? That the force lives within me and it is outside of me. How can I plug into that? Just like that light right there. It needs electricity, so it needs to plug into that outlet right there. So how can I plug into spirit? Into soul? And that a lot of that's also about getting present connection to your breath and connection to something greater than yourself.

And yoga with all the practices, the breath.

And it's a doorway into it.

It's a doorway to it.

Yes. To connect. Yes with one self soul, I think greater.

And it can. It can be whatever you put your put your intention into it. For some people, especially in the West, it can just be a form of exercise that they first start to, but then they start to realize something deeper here is happening too, which was the same thing for me. I'm going to go to yoga. It's going to help me with my anxiety. Oh my gosh, there was grief underneath there too. So I think that it's just a it's a doorway to see and go into more self-exploration and self-study. Yes.

As you said in the West, it can be it can be an exercise sport active yoga sculpt.

Let's get those weights, move those weights.

But the origin of it, for example, was it prepares you for more of the inner work to do. Right. So what's your what's your understanding of the West versus eastern way of practicing yoga?

Well, I think the West has a place of accomplishment in doing.

And so I think that there is this dynamic thing that has made yoga a form of exercise, which there's nothing, you know, wrong with that. It's something that I've utilized to. I mean, go to a yoga class for a good workout. move your body in that way. I, you know, with the East, there is a deeper connection to the authentic, teachings of yoga and the sense of of breath and presence. And I think that it's just a it's a richer space in that way, too. So, I think both serve a purpose.

Can you tell us more about the moment where your sister passed away? And what did this to you?

It connected me to the fragility of life. It. It deepened my connection to see someone that I loved so dearly. And the hurt and the pain that they were experiencing and going through and feeling a sense of helplessness in it. It was a tool for me to see that I needed to process my own grief with it. But what she also needed at times, too, was for me to show up and to be light and strong, because that was the best thing that supported her.

If I came to her with all my grief, it wouldn't have worked well. You know, that's not what would support her. So I had to deal with the grief with others and on my own, and stay present to what she really needed. And, you know, I remembered this dark night of the soul with my sister. It was a couple of months before her passing and she was dealing with so much pain. And at that point, I was teaching grief yoga, and I was trying to see if I could. It was also, you know, giving compassionate heart touch to the dying at that time, too. And I was trying to just bring in all of my resources to just stay present to what would be helpful for her and the practice that I teach within grief. Yoga is also about expressing what has been suppressed. And so there was this point where she felt such anger and hurt and betrayal because she felt like God was going to heal her, and she was feeling such a disappointment within her body.

but not being able to express it. And so part of the work that I do within grief yoga is about expression. And there's this point where, there was an exercise where we just say, why do we keep going? Why, why? And there were even moments where I would invite her to lift it up towards the sky with a sense of why? Like what? Why have you abandoned me? Why is my body failing me? And it was a space to allow her grief to be expressed and released that, that she needed in that space. Because once it happened and the grief was released, it gave her a deeper sense of connection. But the pain demanded expression, too. And so it's like, I'm not a I'm not a fan of spiritually bypassing things. The pain demands the expression, and so once the pain gets expressed, it gives us the space to connect deeper. But don't deny the expression of the pain.

You are mentioning something. Grief. Your sister was grieving herself.

She was grieving her body, her disappointment in her body.

She was grieving that she knew that she wasn't going to live. She wasn't going to see her children grow up, you know, and graduate and get married. She was grieving the dreams that she was never going to have. Yes. There was so much grief that that that was there. Yes.

So the definition of grief is not just losing someone at the left behind. The grief, Grieve the loss. It's also losing something about ourselves.

From I look at grief as a change, an unwanted change that happens. The unwanted change could be for my sister. It was a health diagnosis that was, that ended up killing her. I see grief as when we have lost someone, a loved one. And even when we do lose a loved one, some, we have to also grieve what will never be. Yes, we have to grieve. Maybe our furry pet friends, if we have the loss of, financial security of a job. We we grieve that there can be grief that happens when we feel like.

I feel like I've lost a part of myself, the part of myself that used to love life or have a sense of play and in freedom. You know, we lose friends sometimes, even when someone like a kid would graduate from school. There is a grief and a loss of of changing and moving into something else. So. So I also look at it as a change. And it's usually the grief comes from an unwanted change. But change is constant. And so if we don't allow ourselves the space to grieve, then it can create a place where it's hard to sometimes feel other feelings like happiness, you know? So the grief needs dedicated to time and space.

Probably unwanted change which generates resistance.

Sure.

So because, as you said, there, life is a constant changing. Yes. element. So this is so once we built this resistance there, it becomes sort of a grief. How to overcome that? Or how to process this?

What we resists. It just keeps coming back.

It persists. And so I think that a key first step in it is to develop the awareness that it's like, I don't want this change. This is not what I wanted. I didn't want this. This, this this health diagnosis. I didn't want to lose this person that I cared about. Acceptance doesn't mean we have to like it, but it is our first step. in that way. And I think for me, also a huge component is within the mind body connection. How is it impacting my body here, too? And how can I begin to bring a mind body connection to help me deal with this unwanted change in grief?

Because on the one hand side, it manifests in our body. Yes, but also on on the intellectual level, working on the accepting things changing.

Yep.

When we talk about the body body manifestation and how yoga can help with that, and you have developed grief yoga techniques, can you can you elaborate more about that? And how different is this from a regular yoga practice?

Yeah.

So when I started to develop grief yoga, I really felt like it needed to come from a space also about looking at what we suppress or run away from. So, what I developed within grief yoga is what is called a cycle of compassionate transformation. Okay. So the first step within it is developing a sense of awareness. Okay. An awareness is about creating a sense of safety within the body. Because we've perhaps been through trauma. And so we want to trying to find a safe way to begin to develop and, self-inquiry within the body, how to move the body and to start to get curious about where does grief live in the body? Where does pain live in the body? Starting that sense of awareness can be a powerful thing as we start to move the body. And then expression is the next step. An expression is taking using movement, breath and sound to take the pain and the struggle and to begin to channel it, to move it through an empowering ways. Okay. The next step then is this connection, which is about witnessing the grief, witnessing where it lives within our body, witnessing, Healing, I believe, requires that witness, whether it's through self or within others.

But then in connection it also uses flowing meditations using movement, breath and sound mantra at times to begin to open the chest and open the heart to connect more love, more grace, more gratitude. Surrender becomes the next step which begins to find a place of softening, to relax the body using movement, breath and sound. To calm the mind and to soften the body. And then the final step is called evolution. And evolution is after this loss in trauma I am different. I am no longer the same. And so how can we embrace movement, breath and sound to tap into more perseverance, purpose and play?

And you do this all in one session?

Yes.

It's an integrated session.

It's an integrated session. It is a path. It is a journey. It is all integrated within. Yes. A session.

And how has this been helping people and what, what what feelings emotions make them up or have you experienced.

It creates it creates compassionate transformation. And it helps people to see how much they are suppressing or holding on and giving the space to say, wow, I was able to move that anger out in a safe and empowering ways.

Wow. I didn't know how much I was holding on into my body. Wow. I'm doing these techniques and memories from my past or decades ago start to come up to the surface. The body remembers. So that saying we got issues in our tissues. So it's creating the space to see, you know, where we're feeling, perhaps a little, that needs a little attention and how we can begin to use movement, breath and sound to shift it, to change it, to channel it.

You talked about where trauma sits in our body. where does it sit?

Well, I look at trauma. Is that anything that happens that overwhelms our capacity to cope and respond, it leaves us feeling helpless and hopeless and out of control. And I think that trauma can come from a place that it can live in many different spaces within the body. I mean, sometimes it can live right here within our solar plexus, that sense of fear and and we've lost a sense of our strength and our power can develop knots in our stomach.

It can change our eating habits. Sometimes people eat, eat their feelings, and sometimes there's a loss of appetite there. So I believe that tension and fear and trauma can live within the belly. all trauma has grief, and grief can reside right here within the chest and the heart space. Brokenhearted syndrome is a key thing. And so finding ways that we can begin to give concentrated time for movements that can create either grief bursts or love bursts, I think is an important thing. I think trauma can live right here within the throat. I as I was working with someone she shared with me when she was a young girl, her brother used to beat her up, and she would scream and the father would come in and spank her and say, whatever you do, you cannot scream. And so from an early standpoint, she learned that if I'm hurting or in pain, I can't say anything.

Suppressing.

Suppressing it. And so it gets even stuck within our throat. I can't talk about I can't talk about this traumatic thing.

It's it's stuck within me. And so that's why using sound. And when I say sound, I'm talking about vocalization. That ways of using sound can be a great, powerful way to self-regulate when needed. But it can also be a find ways to express through the voice what is suppressed. And sometimes we might not always have the words to describe the grief and the trauma. And so using that sound can be a powerful release. I think I think trauma can live within the hips. I think a lot of suppressed emotion live within the hips. People who experience sexual trauma, a lot of stuff can be suppressed in the hips. Sometimes in a yoga class, when doing a like a pigeon pose or a big hip opener. A lot of sometimes sadness and grief can come through. Guilt and shame can live within the hip space too. So I think that, you know, I think we all experience Grief differently. We all, you know, express it differently. And trauma has impact us all in different ways too.

Yes, yes, it can be through anger, sadness or suppressing. But if we suppress, we know it has effect on our body as well. Health body, auto immune system and so on. You mentioned as a child you had also anger and sadness and what, what's the connection today from today's understanding and how, how would you suggest to deal with anger.

I think anger serves a purpose especially within grief. I think because grief is such an exhausting emotion, that anger can ignite a fire within us to sometimes help us to move forward. Anger is our teacher that helps us to see when injustice is happening. When we say enough is enough, anger can be a powerful fire that I mean. Activists use anger for purpose. So it's all about how we use the anger and how we channel it, you know, and I think, you know, my sister was taught, hey, good girls aren't supposed to be angry. So I think it can be very challenging for people to be able to express, especially, I think, sometimes for women to be able to express that anger.

But the anger serves a purpose because I also think of sometimes anger can be sadness as bodyguard, and that anger is kind of there to protect the vulnerable side of the grief and the sadness. And so when we give the space to allow the anger to be expressed and to be released, it allows the space to allow what's beneath the anger could be fear, could be sadness, and could be grief. But anger is just a little bit of our protector in that space that we need to that that serves a purpose.

So it is, it is a voice in one way to which is telling you something you need to listen to. Yeah. To express it, you need to process it.

Yeah. And that voice could literally be no. Yes or enough. Yes.

What is the term grief brain.

Grief brain. Oh, gosh. You know, it's hard to focus. It's hard to concentrate. It's hard. There is such a a weight of heaviness that impacts the body that it just makes it like there's a fog in some ways.

Like it's hard to focus on things. And I, there's just a sense of like, I, it's hard to concentrate. and I think a lot of that too can sometimes be the fear and anxiety could be of what is to come, or it could be a place of the mind. Is in the past focusing on I should have done this or what if I would have done this? So I think that I look at grief brain to is, is that sometimes we can be more critical on ourselves than anyone else is, and so the critical mind can become really cruel and mean to ourself. So it is sometimes this, it can be a heavy, turbulent place of fog that can isolate and disconnect us to.

Which part of grief yoga can support. With that.

I think by because grief yoga embraces movement, breath and sound. And so it encompasses all of that for the mind. But when we deepen the breath, we quiet the mind. Okay, so that's already supporting us to kind of quiet the mind a little bit.

Using a moving meditation that happens within grief, yoga two can also bring us into the body. you know, there are different meditational techniques that can be used also to focus on the breath, to quiet the mind. so I think that, you know, there's different there's different sounds also that kind of stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system that can also quiet the mind, too. So it is, I, you know, the body follows the mind. The mind follows the breath. And when we deepen the breath, we can quiet the mind.

And what's an ideal breath to practice, not just during a yoga session, but during the day to connect to our body.

My favorite breath technique that I, I tend to go to all the time is the 478 breath technique. And that is a technique that I can do at any point anywhere. it is inhaling through the nose to a count of four, holding the breath for seven, and then exhaling to a count of eight. I think that the key I for for people who might have a hard time with breath, using numbers to bring the awareness to the breath can sometimes be a helpful thing.

The reason why I find the 478 breath to be helpful to is, is you're also exhaling twice as much air out, which actually helps with the deep breathing. So yeah four, seven, eight is a is a good one.

What does then the slower the slowing exhaling does to our body or to our brain.

Calms the nervous system, calms the nervous system, and it creates the space to allow us to breathe deeply. Now when we are experiencing grief, our breath can sometimes be very shallow. When I breathe deeply, I feel deeply. And for some, breathing deeply might be in something that is activating. I don't want to breathe deeply because I'm not ready to feel this. Yes, the depths of what I'm going through right now. So, yeah, I think that that, breathing deeply is a key component to quieting the mind.

I believe personally, that breath breathwork is one of the most powerful tools we have. I use this all the time. All the time. If I'm in a conversation, if I want to sharpen my mind, if I want to be compassionate, if I want to be more present and, and, I just focus on my breath.

I take it deep breath and then let it out slowly. So that's what you are explaining right now. I do this just because I, I feel it's it's giving me this power. Yes. I need in that moment. Yes. But, by far the best thing we can do because it doesn't need a yoga mat and, a dedicated time it we can access it every.

Time at any point. That is correct. And especially at any point when we're feeling activated, if we're surrounded in an area where we're crowded with people. What I do have control over is, is I can control a little bit of my breath right now, and that can kind of quiet me, you know, or like a breath of fire technique, which is equal inhalation and exhalation through the nose. If I'm feeling a little disassociated from my body, or I'm feeling a lot of heaviness, that can be a breath technique that can begin to activate and help me to bring energy in. I call it like a breath espresso shot.

So if we learn how to use that breath, that life force energy, it can support us throughout our whole life.

Right? I agree.

Yeah.

Me. Me? Yeah, certainly. Can we talk about misconceptions of of of yoga or understanding of yoga or also grief, misconceptions about grief and and in combination.

Yeah. Let's talk about that. Sure. That grief is a form of a weakness. And I don't believe that grief is a form of weakness. I believe that grief is an expression of love. Grief is the price that we pay. We pay for love. I think that the misconception about grief is, is that, nobody wants to address it or to talk about it like it's a, well, like a buzzkill in some ways. But grief is actually a powerful teacher that that helps us to see what's important in life. And a lot of the times we might it might be a harsh teacher because they take away things that are important in our lives. But when we allow ourselves to see how grief is our teacher, in that way, it can help us to live a more meaningful life because we see things and value things in a deeper way.

And some people also like because I give the space to, to grieve. It also gives me more space for laughter. Laughter and grief can be friends. And so when we develop that sense of kind of connection in that space. I may I may feel the depths of sadness deeper, but I can also feel moments of bliss and happiness in a greater way, too.

Yeah. We need to allow the space. is allowing a space a luxury or a necessity in terms of grief?

I think that grief can feel like a luxury for people who might not be able to go there. They're like, I don't have time for grief. I have to take care of my family. I have to take care of my children. Grief may feel like a luxury, but grief will also be a place where it's like it will be there when you are ready to return to it. It's not going to go away, right?

It comes in waves.

It comes in waves. Sometimes I think of a little bit like I'm standing at the shore.

And for me, the grief might be the ocean. And it's far away. And it's not bothering me today. And it's. Sometimes it's like the waves can slowly come in and it can touch my toes and I can feel a little bit. And then there are times where it feels like a wave and it literally knocks me down to the ground. So, yes, I think that it it it it it does demand attention. and I do believe it just it needs dedicated time and space.

Yes. You kept repeating. Movement breath and voice. So we touched the, the the breath and it's important on the movement side. So the yoga helps to move. Are there The specific movement someone can do just to help process trauma in our body.

Well, part of awareness in a grief yoga experience is about deepening the breath and moving the spine. So there's different ways that the spine moves. So I think that finding ways to move the spine is important, because a lot of the time our spine can constrict when we're experiencing grief and loss and drama.

So deepening the breath and moving the spine in that way is really important. I think using movement, breath and sound from a yoga somatic expression to can take from an intentional space areas that we might be struggling with, whether it be anxiety or regret or anger or guilt and consciously begin to, you know, move them through in safe and empowering ways. And that's a little bit about what grief yoga does.

What about the voice?

The voice is a powerful way of expressing. And so the voice can be used in different ways. The voice can be used as using sound to self-regulate the nervous system when feeling overwhelmed. The voice can be used as a place of releasing stored emotion. You know, I might not have the words to describe this heard in this pain, but sound and the voice can. It's using it as a form of release. Okay. Sound can also be a way of lifting the spirit up, whether it's, you know, through laughter or through singing. So using the voice is just a form of expression that's important.

Can you give me some examples of voice training or something I can say or. is it the is it a mantra? Is it a song or how how how do you practice it?

I mean, it can be through through mantra. It could be through the mantra of Satya nama, which means life, death. Infinity, rebirth. SA to nama. It could be, the old Buddhist, mantra of om mani padme hum. it could be the mantra of, Satnam. The truth is my identity. mantra is just a place that it can bring the awareness of the mind to focus on a mantra, to kind of help, to focus it. the voice can be used within affirmations. I am peaceful, I am safe, I am here kind of using it in that space. Sound of the even just the sound of Peter Levine, trauma expert, developed the sound of Vuh to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system, the vagus nerve and the sound of what? To calm the nervous system down. and, sound can be used.

You know, even, like, there's a technique that I do. That's called cannon breath, where you place your fingers, your your fists right at your core. You take three inhales through the nose and then exhale out the mouth like a ha. To start to use the voice to begin to open the voice. Sometimes people are a little like they they they they tense up with the jaw. And so even a jaw release, which is part of like grief yoga, is interlacing the fingers, beginning to shake the palms and beginning to relax and soften the jaw. Which is kind of.

Why, why why why why why why why why why?

Yeah. so sound can be as a form of release, as in, sometimes with the anger, there's a technique that's called the, the wood chopper where you're chopping a piece of wood and your fingers are interlaced, and you inhale and lift it up, and then you bring it down with a ha to start to kind of move through anger or rage, moving anger or grief or sadness with the sound can be a Y.

That can be an expression of some of the pain too. So there's different techniques where we're using movement, breath, and sound to begin to release pain and struggle to connect to more empowerment and love.

That's not that's beautiful. So just different techniques. It's not just one way of doing it. It's about just to express and to let out this what is suppressed.

That's correct, that's correct. But and we we it's a part of the journey that leads us into then a place of connection and witnessing and opening the chest and opening the heart to allow grief bursts and love bursts to move through. But before we do that, the pain demands Expression. Yes. Yeah. Psychologist Doctor Edith Eger was a Holocaust survivor, and she shares that expression is the opposite of depression. And I think that sometimes we get a little stuck within expressing these challenging emotions. And so in the process of grief yoga, it gives us a safe space to begin to express what is suppressed.

In such a grief yoga session. is everyone participating? Is this a community? Is this a group?

Usually different things.

It's like whatever. People are doing it in a classroom situation where people are together, which is what I'll be doing a little later today. Some people are doing it online in the safe space of their own home. Some people, you know are just doing it based on videos in their own space. I teach this to therapists and counselors and psychologists, and they're their bringing it into the space of helping their clients to so it can be in many different forms.

Is there something positive or helpful about doing this in a group as well?

It gives a space to witness the grief within ourselves and others. I feel like it does give us a deeper place of of a connection and a community in that way. and so I think it definitely serves a purpose where we all come together to do that. And I'm also a firm believer that that that can also be experienced in the safety of your own home, too, because sometimes that might be the first step. But but coming together as a community, I think is really important.

And I think that after Covid happened and there was such a sense of isolation and disconnection that happened, coming together within a community is really special.

I know you practice also laughter yoga.

I.

Do what is this except just having a smile?

Okay. So laughter and grief are connected and they can be connected and. Laughter serves a purpose because it can support us within pain. Okay. There are many different, laughter pioneers that have come out into the world. Norman Cousins is one of them. He was diagnosed with a life threatening illness, and Norman Cousins decided he was going to study the benefits of laughter to help him with his pain, and he committed to 20 minutes of hearty laughter every day by watching, like the Marx Brothers or Candid Camera. But what he realized in that space was that laughter gave him two hours of pain free sleep, and so he started to use the laughter as a form of medicine to help him with his pain. And what was a six month diagnosis? He ended up to live 20 more years.

He wrote a really powerful book called anatomy of an illness, and, Patch Adams would bring laughter in to help with children when they were dealing with with pain from life threatening illnesses. the creator of Laughter Yoga is Madan Kataria, and he was a doctor who was wanting to try to bring laughter into help with his patients. He started to do it with kind of like jokes and humor. But the thing is, is that what what some people find is funny might not, other people might not. Our humor is different. Right. So his wife was a yoga teacher, and she started to bring them in as laughter exercises. And so they started to use it. And that's how laughter yoga came around. There's thousands of laughter yoga clubs all around the world. But I think that there's this powerful thing here, that there's a scientific observation that talks about how the body can't tell if laughter is real or fake. And yet when we laugh, there's so many things that are happening within the body the endorphins, the feel good hormones are being released when we laugh, it actually helps with our deep breathing.

The secret to deep breathing is not the inhalation, but it's the exhalation. And when we laugh, we're exhaling a lot of stale oxygen out. So to help us to breathe deeply, too. But there's also this fine connection, too, that laughter can be a key that can allow the free flow of emotions to move through. Take, for instance, somebody who might be laughing all of a sudden might just suddenly break into tears. It's a very fine line within that. Sometimes people who are find other people laughing might start to feel anger about it. Or, you know, there's this place where it's just using sound in a way that allows us to connect to whatever we're feeling, but using laughter as a way to lift the spirit and allow the free flow of emotions to move through. It's a key component thing that we debt Grief needs dedicated time and space, and so does sometimes laughter. Laughter can be a little bit of a beacon of hope. A little bit of a lighthouse that can support us to that, that.

That sometimes we need to create a space where we create dedicated time for grief. And I need to take a break from the pain, too. And finding that space of laughter can be a very helpful thing in that way.

Humor. Laughter. I mean, I.

Mean, that's, you know.

That's that's life. Yeah. In some cultures, that's the way people communicate and and speak to each other. And it's always fun conversations. But I also see, like some in some cultures, there is a restriction to, oh, you're not allowed to to laugh. Sure. So in some way, have you seen that as well or.

Yeah. And again, that's going where we're judging specific emotions. Laughter is not appropriate or grief is not appropriate. So it's a place where there's a judgment of emotions, right? So, yeah, that's going to happen for sure.

Or during grief. You sure not.

Or let's say someone is doing an anger exercise and releasing anger, and then they start to laugh, right? Or let's say we're doing a laughter exercises and somebody else starts to get angry.

It's it's just a place where we we're just using movement, breath and sound to begin to release whatever is suppressed. And if you're, you know, it's just moving it through. That's all it's doing.

Can you guide us through, do you want to do laughter?

Yeah.

Sure, sure. Okay. Are you gonna do it with me?

yes, of.

Course you better. Okay. All right, well, let's just take a moment and just. We'll start off. I'll just, We're just gonna. I'm not. I'm not going to try to force you to laugh or anything like that, but we're just going to use the sound of laughter to connect to. Okay? So the sound of laughter we'll do is as a ho ho. Ha ha ha. Okay. So you just. Yeah. And you don't you just connect to that, and we're just gonna clap our palms like this. Ho ho! Ha ha ha! Ho ho! Ha ha ha! Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho! Ha ha!

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!

Ho ho!

Ha ha ha! Ho ho! Ha ha ha! Good.

All right, now, let's just play a little bit with different ways that we can kind of find ways of laughter. Let's say somebody is like looking at this or like, let's say it's a, like a, a teenager who thinks this is the stupidest thing they've ever done, right? And they're going to do a little sarcastic laugh. So let's go ahead and take a moment and just honor that. Let's just like a sarcastic teenager, just kind of like, ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Very good, very good. Okay, good. Now, let's.

Say that there's also a little mischievous side within us. Okay, so let's connect to what? That part of ourselves. Maybe bring your hands right up here to your mouth and just do a little. Hee hee hee. Like a little mischievous hee. Give it a.

Try. Hey hey hey hey hey hey. Hey hey hey hey hey. Good.

Now let's just take a moment and connect to whatever we're feeling. And we're going through. And we're just open it up like a book like this. And we're going to connect it to laughing gas. So I'm just going to invite you to bring it up to your nose, and you're going to inhale. And then you release it down, connect to whatever you're feeling and you're going through and just laugh. Let's give it a try. Here we go. Inhale then exhale. Release and laugh.

Hee hee hee hee hee hee. Good. And if you're feeling.

Uncomfortable within this, you can connect to that with a little uncomfortable laugh.

I was feeling a little uncomfortable in that moment, so I'm going to connect to that. So you're just connecting to whatever.

You're feeling and you're going through like, let's say you're feeling like a little angry right now. Right. Like, everybody thinks that Santa Claus is supposed to be happy all the time, but maybe Santa Claus is not jolly all the time.

And you connect to, like, the little angry ho ho ho.

Ho.

Ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho ho.

Ho! Hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey hey. Very good. Very good. All right, so those.

Are just some of the techniques that you can kind of begin to like. Like, like, take, for instance, another thing. Like, even within grief, some people, they beat themselves up when they make a mistake. And so what if we were able to laugh about our mistake? This is called mistake. Laughter. And you just bring your hand up to your mouth and you gasp like you made a mistake, and then you release it. Instead of just beating yourself up, you just laugh about it. You want to try.

Oh yeah.

So you bring your hand up and you kind of make a little gasp, like, I made a mistake, but then you release it in with a laugh.

Listen.

Oh. Yeah. You want me to give you an advance?

Laughter one. Okay. I'll give you an advance sometime.

I can't believe I'm doing this. What have I gotten myself into?

You know, sometimes there's body shame that we happen. You know, we judge our bodies, right? So what happens if we start to point out areas of our body instead of, like, judging them? We were able to laugh about them. Now, this is an advanced one. I'm not going to force you to do that.

I'm not forcing you to do any of it.

But like, let's say like if I were going to point out an area of my body that I'd like, like I'm in grief about, like, okay, right here. So what if I kind of did that? And I'm just like, going to laugh at myself? Ha ha ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha. Good.

So what we're doing here is we're using laughter as a way of supporting wherever we're at.

And a lot of the times to like take for instance, right now, I invite you to place your hands on your chest and your heart. Take a moment there and breathe. And now let's just take a moment and remember someone here that our heart loves and misses. And take a moment and maybe even connect. And remember a time where you remember them laughing. So the laughter serves a purpose. The laughter can move whatever emotion we're going through. But it can also tap us into sometimes grief bursts and sometimes love bursts too.

Two and thinking about the positive things. If we are grieving about a person.

Yeah. And for some people who might be like, I don't remember them laughing. Maybe it's just taking a moment of time of saying can. Was there a moment of peace that you can remember with them, you know?

Yes.

That can be the doorway into. Thank you for laughing with me.

Yeah. Thank you for sharing your laughter with me. Was a real pleasure. Yeah.

Your pleasure. What do you do in your life to to stay in balance and accept yoga and laughter?

Oh, gosh. Well, how do I figure the balance out? I think yoga helps me a lot with balance, to be honest with you. I think that it gives me the space to get into my body. I think, balance happens for me too, by saying I'm going to commit to, you know, moments of dealing with anger or sadness or grief and also moments where I'm going to be playful and find moments of joy. So it's I think that it's like dedicated, committed time to this. You know, I think, having a pattern change can be really helpful to I'm feeling stuck in this situation or this circumstance. Maybe it's something dealing with work, or maybe it's it's, something that feels heavy for me, creating some sort of a pattern change where it takes me out of where I'm at. And it whether it be going to a different location, traveling somewhere else, connecting to a friend that can shift, that.

Having a pattern change can sometimes be helpful within the flow too. and, what else is the biggest? I think that, helping me to connect to something greater really helps me to, you know, whatever that is for you. Power greater than yourself. Connection to source. I think plugging in and finding conscious ways to do that brings a sense of balance for me, too.

Can you think about something you would like to share with everyone in the world? as a recommendation, what they can do, what they can implement in their life.

The word kindness is coming to me right now. And I think kindness is really important. I think both to ourself. I think that, you know, we're struggling in our own way and how can we be kind to ourselves. So many others are struggling to that sense of a random act of kindness, even to a stranger or to people that we care about. I mean, I think it goes a long way. So I think, where can you find little random acts of kindness today?

I can agree to that.

thank you very much. Thank you. I enjoyed very much our conversation today. And, you're you're a big example that, struggle can be a superpower and can lead to something, helping so many other people and bringing, like, grief, yoga into the world and spreading, spreading out to the world and the movement to help so many other people in need. Thank you for doing that. And thank you for taking the time today. I know it's pressure and, you have you have a schedule. I appreciate thank you.

I've enjoyed this time. I appreciate you, thank you, thank you.